Voice Over Guy:
Hello, and thanks for coming along to …And We Have an Office Dog, the Digital Agency podcast where we talk to agency owner directors and learn more about what makes them tick, from the things that make them similar to the things they’d rather have known sooner, where they’ve had success and where they’ve learned some hard lessons. All will be revealed with your host Chris Simmance, the Agency Coach. And he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. Okay, so let us begin. Over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance:
Thanks voiceover guy and on the podcast, I’m lucky enough to be talking to Dave Hooper all the way from LA area. Dave, did we just say LA area running an agency called Build a Better website or Build a Better Website. Dave, welcome to the show.
Dave Hooper:
Oh, thank you for having me, Chris. It’s a pleasure.
Chris Simmance:
And I appreciate you coming on in the morning, kids to feed, getting ready for school and running a business at the same time. Surprised you look as young as you do.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah. Yeah, well, the coffee’s still kicking in here, so I’m good.
Chris Simmance:
There we go. There we go. Um, so, so Dave, tell us a little bit about the business, uh, just in case there’s someone who’s desperate for a brand new, brilliant website, and they can only think of one place to go. Why should they buy from you?
Dave Hooper:
Well, yeah, the business is called Build a Better Website. And as the name suggests, you know, we do automobile repair. No, I’m kidding.
Dave Hooper:
We actually build a better website. I is sort of on the nose, as they say, but yeah, I think after my history and doing my journey to get here, I kind of came to the realization that there are ways to build a better website. So,
Chris Simmance:
Well,
Dave Hooper:
yeah.
Chris Simmance:
hopefully we’ll learn a few of these lessons without taking some IP
Dave Hooper:
the
Chris Simmance:
away during the recording here. So how long has the agency been going?
Dave Hooper:
So I started it in 2020 right before the pandemic. So…
Chris Simmance:
Nice timing, well done.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah, I wasn’t sure, but yeah, in retrospect, it was good timing. Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
So beginning of the pandemic, presumably you didn’t need to worry about office costs because for obvious reasons. And that’s a nice way to start a little bit of extra surplus cash there. And so what’s, what’s the, do you have a niche? Do you build specific types of sites, specific technologies? What’s the, if I was to, you know, come along with, with a big, big truck load of cash and I wanted a website, what would it be built in?
Dave Hooper:
Yeah, so we primarily, pardon me, we focus on small business and entrepreneurs.
Chris Simmance:
Uh huh.
Dave Hooper:
I think, you know, it’s an area of business that is the hardest to get started because there are so many costs
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
to starting a business. And I’ve noticed a trend of lots of people who work in corporate want out, you know, they become…
Chris Simmance:
Yeah,
Dave Hooper:
corporate
Chris Simmance:
wonder why.
Dave Hooper:
refugees of sorts, you know? And then they look at, well, how can I do this? And I kind of did it myself. So I sort of, I’m in their shoes as it were, but I noticed all the expenses.
Chris Simmance:
Hmm.
Dave Hooper:
They total up and it makes it hard. And frankly, all the services favor mid-size and big business. So I saw that there was an opening.
Chris Simmance:
That’s awesome. And I’m guessing the people that you work with, in a nice way, they’re really thankful for the opportunity to be able to get something that’s usually outpriced, shall we say. I know what you mean with websites in particular, and digital marketing services to a degree, is that if there’s almost like a price barrier in many services, anything below that barrier is usually terrible. And anything above that barrier is… unattainable but fine for their needs. And it’s very easy to have a nice looking website. You know, you get your free WordPress thing, you get your $1.99 hosting a month and you throw a theme on top of it and you think that that’s good enough. And you know it’s not when you’re running your own business. Eventually it sort of falls down and things like that. But the cost usually precludes you from having anything that’s decent. So nice market area to be in. And I know that there’s an awful lot of entrepreneurs over that side of the world. So I’m sure you’re not gonna be too short of leads, which is a good sign. So what do you think has been one of the biggest successes since you started running the agency then?
Dave Hooper:
Well, I think I kind of came across an idea, sort of my pricing model and working. Um, sort of the short description is in a, uh, a subscription style
Chris Simmance:
Mmm.
Dave Hooper:
where I, I routinely say, um, you know, I don’t think a static website really does. Uh, a good job for a business. I think, um, not just for SEO purposes or, you know, I think signaling to the internet that you’re still open for business and. things are happening there. I think having some kind of evolution on your website is important. Certainly the initial design or the redesign is important. You have to host it. I’ll always argue that really good hosting is a good idea, if nothing else, for SEO because Google likes fast sites. But I kind of bundle everything up. I look at a year for a business, and I say, OK,
Chris Simmance:
Mm.
Dave Hooper:
you need the redesign. You need hosting. all manner of reporting and uptime monitoring and, uh, you know, all the, all the stuff that I think, uh, equals, uh, a working website that does well for a business, and then I just divide it evenly by 12. So just to use round numbers, you know, rather than charge, say 2400 bucks for a website and all those services, I just charged 200 bucks a month and I don’t ask for a big fee upfront. There’s no deposit upfront. So. This is me paying it forward in a sense, because I think a lot of people have been burned by web people. I can’t tell you how many times people have said, I had a guy and he disappeared on me. I don’t understand what happens.
Chris Simmance:
Mmm, yeah.
Dave Hooper:
It does put me at a disadvantage at first, but this kind of makes them feel a little comfortable to get started. I can actually have my website and I’ll build it in month one and then we’ll launch it in month two. and their ROI is right behind them. You know what I mean? Like
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
they can actually have a chance for their website to work for them, which I think it can, you know, if it’s done
Chris Simmance:
Yeah,
Dave Hooper:
right.
Chris Simmance:
I like well, based on the the market area that you’re, you’re aiming for, that’s that sounds like a really easy, no brainer kind of sale. And in many senses, I’m guessing, you know, there’s complexities to it. It’s not as cheap as that when you when you want an Ecom thing or some kind of fancy functionality. But yeah,
Dave Hooper:
You’re exactly
Chris Simmance:
it’s
Dave Hooper:
right.
Chris Simmance:
it’s certainly lowers the certainly lowers the risk profile, it certainly lowers the increases the comfort. And which is again, if you like you say, if you’ve been burned by someone in the past, then those sorts of things are often a lot easier to handle, which is great. So it feels like a lot longer ago than in reality, it really was. But when you set the agency up, if you could go back in time now.
Dave Hooper:
Thank
Chris Simmance:
and give yourself a little bit of advice based on things you’ve learned in the last three and a bit years. What would you advise younger and probably ever so slightly more sprightly self?
Dave Hooper:
you. Thank you. Well, my sort of regret was not starting this sooner. I think a lot of times with young people or people who haven’t done this before, there’s a lot of fear. And I picked that up with business owners as well. You know, like it’s a lot. Right. You’re wearing all the hats. You know, I’m working in the business, working on the business, all that stuff. Um, but yeah, I think, um, don’t be afraid to experiment and try ideas. Um, you know, having, I kind of came through more of a corporate. Well, I struggled through corporate, which is what brought me here. And I can talk about that, but, uh, I think, uh, it should be okay to try to, uh, think outside the box and do, uh, do it and, and don’t be afraid to experiment. It’s hard to experiment with real customers, because you need that to work.
Chris Simmance:
Thank you.
Dave Hooper:
But don’t be afraid to just jump in and do it.
Chris Simmance:
Would you have listened to your own advice?
Dave Hooper:
Um, yeah, I, so, uh, just as a bit of history, um, I had a whole career in music. And my, my dad was a jingle writer and I sort of grew up in recording studios. And then, um, I played drums with, um, some famous people and toured the world. And, and I sort of studied jazz and improvisation and I never really thought there was a correlation or parallel with, uh, music and tech. But I would say that, um, that part of nurturing your creative process and improvisation, I would say, has now served me well because I would, I got recruited by Microsoft and I worked there and I was sort of bouncing against the walls in there because corporate is very structured and process oriented,
Chris Simmance:
Idiot.
Dave Hooper:
which is, I understand why, but it still wasn’t easy for me. And, and then later work. I was actually working at Facebook as a web designer right before the pandemic. And same thing, very expensive, big teams, very, um,
Chris Simmance:
Mm.
Dave Hooper:
I use the term stiff. I mean, it’s just very straightforward. Um, I was the guy in the room asking the questions like, why can’t we just make the big change that we need? And
Chris Simmance:
Okay.
Dave Hooper:
there were all manner of reasons, like there’s legacy and we have tens of thousands of users that can’t handle big changes anyway. Um, So yeah, I think coming out of it and sort of reverse engineering things or just building out of sheer logic, I
Chris Simmance:
Mm.
Dave Hooper:
questioned the logic for things. And I just decided to do it different. So
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
I just did it. And yeah, it was a bit of a roll of the dice, but you know, still here. So things are going
Chris Simmance:
Um,
Dave Hooper:
well.
Chris Simmance:
for slight follow up questions that you mentioned about like working in corporate and larger businesses and having kind of that stiffness and things. And obviously there are reasons for it for obvious, you know, there, you can’t change one thing just because you fancy it and 10,000 people were affected. But how would you, as your, as your business grows, and I’m sure it will, as your business grows, how do you intend to sort of tackle the need to not be in flexible? whilst also having that kind of same requirement, I guess, to have a consistent service, consistent language, consistent communication and output and things like that. So have you had that conversation internally yet? Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah, yeah, so it’s a great question. I think remaining open to new ideas gets harder and harder as you get older, and I’m not in my 20s anymore, you know, so I think making an effort to welcome in the new ideas, I mean, artificial intelligence has been the biggest one lately,
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
you know, and a lot of people are afraid of it. I think, for me, from my perspective, I sort of think. You know, agencies, businesses that use it, uh, will overtake those who don’t. I don’t think it will actually take our jobs. I’m not
Chris Simmance:
Mm.
Dave Hooper:
sure that’s the prediction per se, though there are a lot of tools that do a lot of the things that an agency does. Um, but I think if in the hands of a professional, someone with experience, I think it can propel your business and, and it’s a waste of time to fear it and worry and, uh, be paralyzed by it, right? Just embrace it and go. So I say generally, I hope I’m answering your question. I tend to ramble, but you know, I think
Chris Simmance:
We
Dave Hooper:
just
Chris Simmance:
all do Dave.
Dave Hooper:
keep your mind open and take on the new ideas. It’s not, you
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
know,
Chris Simmance:
So,
Dave Hooper:
yeah.
Chris Simmance:
so, um, let’s say you’ve got 300 clients. They’ve all got their subscriptions, different tiers and things like that. They’ve all got the different things that need to be done. And
Dave Hooper:
Mm-hmm.
Chris Simmance:
client comes along and says, right, I really need all of these extra things now. And it’s, you know, you’ve got to provision the time for that you’ve got to manage this, the the scaling as as things things happen. And I guess, part of the need for process will be literally being able to deliver that without impacting other clients. But you’ll also have an aspect of it where you kind of want to go, sure, yeah, absolutely. This flexibility, this need to embrace change is in our warehouse. Yeah, we’re going to work on that.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
There’s going to be a time when you’re going to have to sort of go, right, late nights, early mornings.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah, yeah, no, it’s funny because then process comes right back to haunt you in those cases. Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
See ya.
Dave Hooper:
No, boy, you’re touching on all the right things. Yes. So that’s not that dissimilar to my situation. Now I sort of took it on myself to try to automate and make things efficient to the best I possibly could because I saw so much inefficiency in the big agencies. Um, so yeah, I think it’s a study in how much can one or two or three people do, but you are absolutely right. And I, I want to build in, um, scalability for my clients, you know, if they just come on and we’re starting them with a landing page because that’s the, the bare minimum, right? You know, so hopefully we’re doing right by them, their business is growing. There will come a time I’m like, now I need a full website or now I need e-comm, or I want to
Chris Simmance:
Hmm.
Dave Hooper:
integrate with my CRM. Like there’s all sorts of. new tech that they need. That’s actually a good, that’s a feature, not a bug for my company, right? So I want to scale with them. I want to help them. Of course, it means I’m going to charge them more along the way for more services,
Chris Simmance:
Yeah,
Dave Hooper:
but
Chris Simmance:
yeah, yeah.
Dave Hooper:
as
Chris Simmance:
Well,
Dave Hooper:
they
Chris Simmance:
naturally,
Dave Hooper:
say, it’s always
Chris Simmance:
they’ll
Dave Hooper:
easier
Chris Simmance:
assume
Dave Hooper:
to…
Chris Simmance:
that that’s the case, I hope.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah. But now… You know, with the pandemic sort of forced everyone to be more comfortable or get used to working remotely, you know, having a team that can scale up, making sure you got the right people in place that have a flexibility
Chris Simmance:
Mm-hmm.
Dave Hooper:
of time, being able to delegate, delegate, delegate,
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
you know, as much as possible. I find if you’re a control freak, this is very difficult. Right.
Chris Simmance:
Oh
Dave Hooper:
And
Chris Simmance:
yeah.
Dave Hooper:
I, I kind of like the collaborative process. I really thrive on it. maybe remnants of my time as in the music industry and as that is very much collaborative. So,
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, you can’t really delegate
Dave Hooper:
but yeah,
Chris Simmance:
from
Dave Hooper:
you
Chris Simmance:
the…
Dave Hooper:
just got to be ready. Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
So, yeah, no, I don’t think I mean, I personally found letting go of things difficult, but delegation is a large part of becoming moving from that management leader to a real leader. And as a business grows, you need to be flexible enough to do that. And I think that that’s a nice trait to have, especially if it’s, you know, if you’ve naturally got it, you’ve naturally got it, which is nice. So as soon as you started, is there anything that you kind of regret and as soon as you did it you went, no, we’re never doing this again, this is the last time we’re ever taking on this type of job or we’re never going to do it this way ever again? What was the story?
Dave Hooper:
Well, you know, I think I despite reading books and hearing podcasters and people talk about this idea of sometimes there are the clients that take up most of your time or an inordinate amount of time. And they say you should let those people go or. Don’t let them do that. It’s tough when you’re getting started and you need revenue. And looking back, I feel like there was a lot of my time that I want back. Just clients that aren’t the right fit. And yes, high class problems, of course, I’ve got clients that I get.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
But I do think that that’s sage advice. I think. you’ll find, you know, everyone’s vetting each other, right? You, you meet them, um, you as an agency owner, you’re vetting clients as well to find out, is this going to be the right personality type? Um, I don’t do things in a very corporate way. So people, I need to dictate that to them. I need to let them know, you know,
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
like I am not a suit. As they say, you know, I, I, I’m creative. I want to do this in a, in a very creative way. And if you’re on board, then we’re going to have fun,
Chris Simmance:
Yeah,
Dave Hooper:
you know,
Chris Simmance:
and I totally agree with you. I think at early doors, it’s almost impossible to say no to anything that comes in for the obvious reason. You need cash in order to grow. That’s a given, it’s almost a rite of passage when you’re running an agency. Knowing when the line is that you need to draw to start saying no. difficult to come up with because it becomes like an addiction. Um, that, you know, the, the, the, the prize of the win, the contract signing feels great. You know, it in your heart, it’s not going to go that well, but you feel great for that five minutes or so. Um, I think a lot of it comes down to kind of pre-qualification with your marketing, uh, pre-qualification with your tone of voice and that authenticity and consistent approach with how you speak and how you behave and how you publish things on social media and things like that. people know
Dave Hooper:
Absolutely.
Chris Simmance:
what they’re getting before you get there. Marketing is what happens when people talk about you not in the room.
Dave Hooper:
Exactly.
Chris Simmance:
And if that’s the person
Dave Hooper:
That
Chris Simmance:
that
Dave Hooper:
Jeff
Chris Simmance:
you…
Dave Hooper:
Bezos or somebody said that yeah.
Chris Simmance:
I think it was, yeah. I’m doing a version of paraphrasing and coming
Dave Hooper:
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
off as my own. I can’t remember who said it, but I know someone did say it.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
I definitely just said it though. Um…
Dave Hooper:
You did. Oh, that’s Chris’s.
Chris Simmance:
There
Dave Hooper:
Yes.
Chris Simmance:
you go, Chris Simmons, 2023. Um, so, um, you know, if you, if you’ve got this authentic approach, then that almost qualifies out quite a lot of people who wouldn’t be a fit because they kind of feel, I can’t push this guy around, or I, you know, I don’t want to work in that way and that sort of stuff. And hopefully that kind of kind of helps, but knowing when to say no is tough. Really tough.
Dave Hooper:
Now, I agree, and I think I have some fellow agency owners, and we’ve had this conversation. Our latest sort of iteration idea that we’re coming up with is more of a And we’ve been calling it a discovery page, but it’s sort of your contact page with your contact form on it, but with more, you know, so, um, a video at the top, maybe a long form video, you know, in, in a world where people like short, uh, you know, short videos, but you know, something that really dictates, this is how I work, this is how, how it goes,
Chris Simmance:
Hmm.
Dave Hooper:
you know, and then the contact form isn’t just name and email and phone number. It’s it’s, it’s more.
Chris Simmance:
Mm.
Dave Hooper:
And so it’s part of the vetting process. You know, if after watching a video, people will very much have a quick idea of, yeah, this is not my person or okay, this is cool. You know, I, I, I
Chris Simmance:
Yeah,
Dave Hooper:
understand
Chris Simmance:
I can get behind
Dave Hooper:
this.
Chris Simmance:
that.
Dave Hooper:
And then they answer more questions. It was actually a little bit more. And so it helps the process on so many fronts. So you’re helping the customer either move on and find the right person.
Chris Simmance:
Mm-hmm.
Dave Hooper:
So you’re doing them a solid or. you’re bringing them in with more, with more, their expectations are set a little more accurately
Chris Simmance:
Yep.
Dave Hooper:
and then you can kind of hit the ground running, so it kind of advances the conversation, a meeting or two, and then that’s been big because even my clients find somebody that has a very high-end service, they get asked for the lower end. versions of their service and they constantly have to say no. That’s an easy one, right? You just say, well, you know, maybe on your form, what’s your starting budget and make that starting number really high
Chris Simmance:
Yep.
Dave Hooper:
indicating like, okay, yeah,
Chris Simmance:
Yeah,
Dave Hooper:
I just
Chris Simmance:
yeah.
Dave Hooper:
needed this little thing, you know, anyhow, but that those are some of the more out of the box, creative ways of doing it because 99% of websites just have a contact page, just give us your stuff, we’ll have a phone call or whatever.
Chris Simmance:
Well, I mean, I, as a, as a, uh, as a business owner who works building agencies with agency owners, did some market research and this was anecdotal, you know, me clicking around the internet, should we say
Dave Hooper:
Mm-hmm.
Chris Simmance:
big old list of agencies to have a look at their websites? Uh, the ones that had contact pages had just a form and no other way to contact anyone and personally, I find that really, uh, I might still fill in the form, but it’s nice to know there’s a telephone number or an email address or something along those lines. Most of the email addresses didn’t work. Most of the email addresses were like… info at so they weren’t really personalized. The forms
Dave Hooper:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
were just like name, email, message, like there wasn’t any kind of and you can tell that there’s not been much thought gone into it and they’ll take any lead that they can because very clearly they’re making it hard to get their own leads in. But I like the idea of like this kind of pre-qualification discovery style form, it’s a good move. So.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah, I think I like what you were saying there about, you know, people can pick up on wow, you’ve actually thought this through the cleverness, I think people underestimate, you know, or they play people for a fool or they think, you know, they don’t think that someone will see through. your shenanigans, you know, like just do it right, you know, say I, I, I, I find myself saying to business owners, especially small business owners, because they’re the stakeholders. They’re the ones who are passionate about their business. Right. I said, okay, maybe you’re uncomfortable on camera, but, uh, you, the most powerful thing you can do is say in your own words, this is me, this is what I do. I’m very good at it. If you’re a BNC, I can help you. Let’s have a conversation. far more than some nicely designed brochure, you know, on their website, you know, say it, it personalizes the website to the degree that it can be personal. And if your call to action is set up a meeting, whether it’s a zoom meeting or whatever, it will happen, you know, and then people will know, you know, versus, well, I filled out some contact forms, you know, and then people say, now, which agency are you from? Because I was shopping today, and I filled out 10 and
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
you know,
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
That’s a not a good start to me. That’s a.
Chris Simmance:
I completely agree. I completely agree. I wish more people would do it like us. Um, Dave,
Dave Hooper:
I’m out. Bye.
Chris Simmance:
people are listening across the world, probably all 333 million Americans listening to this podcast right now. What is your one piece of advice for anyone who’s wanting to start their own digital agency?
Dave Hooper:
Wow. Well,
Chris Simmance:
mistake.
Dave Hooper:
I would say, try, you know, everyone needs a bit of an niche or something that differentiates them. So whatever that is, do your best to capitalize on that,
Chris Simmance:
Mm.
Dave Hooper:
you know, declare what it is that makes someone want to hire you versus someone else. And and there is going to be, you know, the right bit of collection of people, population of people
Chris Simmance:
Hmm.
Dave Hooper:
for whom you’re perfect for. So, you know, uh, not conforming to, uh, every other, uh, agency that does it the way
Chris Simmance:
Yeah.
Dave Hooper:
they do it, you
Chris Simmance:
So
Dave Hooper:
know, I would say just
Chris Simmance:
don’t sell
Dave Hooper:
try
Chris Simmance:
everything
Dave Hooper:
to do it your way.
Chris Simmance:
to everyone.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
Sell something
Dave Hooper:
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
to the right people.
Dave Hooper:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
Love
Dave Hooper:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance:
it.
Dave Hooper:
Cause cause it translates, right? I mean, that’s that thing, you know, whatever, if you’re, if you do what you’re passionate about, it won’t feel like work.
Chris Simmance:
Hmm.
Dave Hooper:
Right? So, um, that’s, that’s what I noticed coming out of Facebook. Uh, you know, lining Zuckerberg’s pocket was fine. And, and it adds to my credibility with what I do, but that was his dream, not mine. So I think that’s, uh, that’s who I am. And if I can help someone else who’s kind of in their own version of, of my truth, then, uh, you know, I think I can really help them.
Chris Simmance:
That’s awesome, Dave. Thank you so much for
Dave Hooper:
Mm.
Chris Simmance:
coming on the podcast. Wonderful to speak
Dave Hooper:
My pleasure.
Chris Simmance:
to you, and I hope you have a lovely morning whilst I’m entering my evening.
Dave Hooper:
Oh, thank you so much, Chris. It was a pleasure.