𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Hello. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Hey, Judith. How you doing?
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
I’m good. Hi, Chris.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
I’ve I’ve just welcomed Judith on the call just a moment ago. And for everyone else here, if I suddenly. Meet myself. It’s. Because I’m suffering from man flu, so I sound a little bit. Like the late, great Barry White, just an awful lot less talented. So we’re gonna be talking. About critical thinking rather than smooth, smooth tunes, and hopefully everyone will will get something out of this web. Today, personally it’s something I massively love talking about a little bit too much sometimes, and I know it’s a it’s a big deal for you in your in, in your coaching, Judith. So those of you who who don’t know Judith, do you wanna give a little mini intro into into who the mindful Maverick is?
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Well, I help you know. I create clear thinking and decisive leaders. I am considered the leading authority on Maverick leadership, so I specialise in leadership. Culture change, those kind of things so. Critical thinking lateral thinking is definitely my jam.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
It’s, I mean, everything I’ve everything I’ve seen and heard from everything that you, you, you talk about there’s there’s always a layer of that in there forever. So we’re gonna, we’re, we’ll, we’ll get cracking. Hopefully a few people will will join along the way, but obviously. As with this busy, busy world that we live in right now, most people will come and watch on the replays. And you know the on demand video culture, so first thing, I think we we really need to talk about, I I I think is what the heck is critical thinking and why do we need. It because I hear it an awful lot when I talk to different digital agency leaders. Oh yeah, we do critical thinking all the time. We have sessions where we talk about critical thinking all the time. And then when you. Kind of are a bit curious around that you you realise that they’ve heard of it and they kind of feel it’s a part of a process as opposed to something that’s kind of inside you? So what would you? What would you normally sort of say is a? A a a clear definition of critical thinking. What? What do you say it is?
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
OK, just before I tell you that I was smiling because I think when people talk about critical thinking, what they mean is they’re critical with their thinking, not quite the same. So, so critical thinking is an objective analysis and evaluation of an issue. So that you can make a decision basically so you can judge it. So it’s that critical analysis and evaluation and. It’s something that you do on your own. You know, it’s a it’s a singular sport as it is because when you do critical thinking, it’s for you to form a judgement. So you’re independently deciding rather than going with the crowd.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, and and and the good thing about it is if you do that well, the thing that comes out of your mouth or into your emails or your reports afterwards. Is the product of that good critical thinking and that’s the thing that inspires good kind of challenging conversation, good negotiation, good, good delivery of things. Less problems usually is is a good sign that you’ve been doing critical. Thinking quite well.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
When, when would you kind of most kind of when would you feel like the? If someone say. Yeah, but why do we need it? Why? Why? Why do we need critical thinking? What’s what’s if you’re trying to pretend you’re trying to sell? It to me well.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
If you’re a leader, and I believe everybody’s a leader, so you’re entitled for that, then you you are trying to influence others. You’re trying to get things done and you need to. Make sure that what you’re doing is what you believe is right, so if you’re not a critical thinker, it means that you’re more like a sponge. People will tell you ideas, you will just accept that and go along with it, so critical thinking. But the decisions it’s reflective on who you are and you can operate proper solutions based on the evidence that’s there. So this is. Evidential critical thinking is rather than caught up in your own biases.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, yeah. And and and that’s really hard to do unless you kind of. Build that thinking into your own kind of mental workflow. You’ve gotta kind of you’ve got to actually do it. It’s it. It becomes natural overtime and it should become natural like any. Kind of, uh, new learned thing, but in the in. The sort of the normal. Scheme of how you do things. It isn’t necessarily something that people immediately jump to. It’s usually kind of this happens. So therefore I react in that way.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, and people want creative thinkers, don’t they? But you can’t be creative if you’re not critical. First, the critical thinking comes first, and then the creative thinking and the emergent thinking comes from that base. And that’s what I. Found with Maverick leaders is that they don’t. Think in one. Particular style. They start off with critical. Thinking and then I’ll go for another thinking style and another thinking style and then come up with a conclusion.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
And and I think this is where I I I I This is why I think it’s a superpower in the digital agency and that’s mostly because yes, you need to be you you need to have a a a series of processes in a in especially in a technical role so web development. Technical SEO. Quite a lot of SEO, quite a lot of paid advertising. You need a lot of sort of technical. Thinking but the the problem is what often happens in those kinds of businesses? Because you have to sell on deliverables, you have to sell on sometimes sadly time you have to sell on a certain set of deliverables. You end up in kind of like a a process thinking so it’s kind of if this then that. So I follow the process map, I follow the scope of work I’ll. Follow the the checklist, but the critical thinking aspect is it kind of comes before the process during the process and after the process that you have to do as part of your. Inflables. So that means that sometimes you can ask critical thinking questions of yourself during that process or before the process which either means certain things don’t need to. Get done, or some things get done in a different way than is in the scope of work. And you can stand up, you know, put your hands up and say I’m not going to do it this way because here’s the evaluation that I’ve had. After analysing all of the data that this client might have, I don’t need to do these 10 things this month. I need to do this one thing which is going to move the needle much more. I mean in, in, in digital agencies, it’s incredibly difficult to allow for. This sort of thinking. And I find that once you, once you get it moving inside the inside teams, you start seeing a big impact of the people who think it and like it, and people who don’t.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
You know what I think it’s if more than anything, it’s so key in digital agency because if you think about the clients, the clients selves paying a lot of money for something that appears to be magic, isn’t it? And then magically I.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
It is basically, yeah, yeah.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Will need clients. How did that happen? Right. So sometimes the client will have this great idea, or they’ll say this is what my my thing is, this is where I’m different from everybody else. And if you’re not doing critical thinking, you’re gonna be like a sponge and going. Ohh, yeah. We’ll just take that and I’ll deliver. This, but you’re then. Delivering something that’s not going to. Look and whose fault is it? Well, it’s yours because they paid thousands of pounds of money and you’ve not delivered what they’ve wanted.
Yep, Yep.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
And that all comes back to did you contract properly? IE I don’t mean like a formal contract, but what is it that you want to do? Why do you want to do it? Well, it’s the strategy for that. And then actually, critically. Going show me the evidence. Why does this happen and? Actually doing that up front. In the process, before you do your critical path process. Will make a huge difference. I think it’s especially key that for people that work in things like digital latency where what they do is magic, you know, so you need to.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
I I I reckon that anyone watching this now or in the future is gonna love. You do this. Because they love their they love being told what they do is magic, and it is. It definitely is, and I’m sure your mum believes you as well. It’s definitely magic. It’s definitely not processes, it’s the the. I think when when it comes into. Like the digital agency culture, it’s. Not built for critical thinking and that’s part of the problem you see in that you’ve got.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
To you.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
You often start digital agency selling deliverables or time, and you then get to a point where you hire people who need training or you hire people that you need to be able to utilise and manage in some kind. Kind of. I hate to say it in like some sort of McDonald’s eyes way where each thing gets done the same 100 times at a a day.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
And that can that can cause a conflict with the right kind of critical thinking. Now, there’s no there is a balance between these two things that I’ve found in the past that works quite well. And that’s that’s when it comes to deciding on which of the processes you follow. So you’ll have things which you know will work that should always be implied. Tented, but they don’t have to be implemented at the same time. It’s kind of like a recipe for making a certain cake the the method for making a cake will almost always be the same, but the ingredients may be slightly different each time, and I think that in digital in the digital agency kind of culture and. The the, the, the, the, the. Critical thinking that people typically will do. All day, every day, hopefully is the thing that decides which ingredients go into the cake. The cake becomes the recipe for the cake becomes the the standard processes usually.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah. So the question there lies for me. Is where’s the value? Add. So if everybody setting a is is following a set process might be unique to that agency, but it’s. Fundamentally the same thing. Then where’s your value? Add right? So if you have a client who wants to pick you over, you know a over.
This is it.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
What are you doing with them during that process? It’s a bit like for me, I would imagine if I was going. To hire additional agency. I want them to be. Able to challenge my views, you know. Cause and and be clear and explain to me why my views doesn’t make any sense or why I haven’t been able to achieve what I want to achieve and then when they tell me what their process is. I want to interrogate that and say, well, tell me, why would that work? How would that happen? And I think if you’ve got a client that doesn’t do that anyway, I think you should. Tell them. Yeah, it’s. Demonstrating that there’s something that’s happening beyond a. Process because only one can follow the process.
Speaker
I I.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
I I I completely I I I completely agree and I think where the the balance has to come in is the economics of how agencies run and the economics of how an agency runs is that sadly you need a lot of people doing a lot of smaller, less. High impact tasks, but you still need an awful lot of people doing those things. Those people are your future agency leaders, but they have to learn somehow. It’s they’re the equivalent of sweeping the floors in, in, in a factory. You you eventually work your way up. Now quite a lot of that work is. Is if this then that do this thing do it this way methodically. It has to be done this way because that’s part of, say, Google’s Webmaster guidelines from an. SEO point of view or? The Google ads terms and conditions or or review policies and guidelines so you have to do things. In certain ways. Which means you need to process process. By, but it doesn’t mean that for everything you have to do that and then you can have that kind of pillar level or high quality level strategic parts that that form why you’re different as an agency, yeah, they’re the bits where you can have your own secret sauce and where you can deliver something a little bit more. Meaningful to the to the client, and oftentimes the strategy. If you don’t have a critical thinking element inside you or inside your agency. That that bit that adds value just becomes a templated strategy, so that’s the bit where you’re saying how do you add value? And I think a lot of agencies struggle with that value add bit because of this.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
But also I think you’re totally right, but also if if your employees are critical thinkers, it means they’re self-discipline. Yeah, it means they self correct. In terms of their? Own thing and they’re self-directed and self motivated. So those type of individuals who are all of those things are only adding to the agency and adding. To the client. Because there’s a huge risk. You’re just pulling processes and you’re not doing that self-directed self motivating it is that you’re just ploughing through and you’re missing stuff because those people who’s doing it will notice. Oh, hang. On a second. Well, I did this. That SEO drove that behaviour? Yeah. Which is what was wasn’t expected. Let me interrogate that.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Now I’m going to interrogate this, evaluate it. Yes. What happens and see what happens next. So I always like to say when I’m talking about critical thinking that curiosity didn’t kill the cat and in the sense that. It’s the curious questions you ask in here in your head that are the things that are the evaluative questions, the things that you usually, if you’ve had a lot of experience, can ask those evaluative questions yourself. If you haven’t had a lot of experience and you’re in a trusting environment, you can ask a lot of those evaluative questions as a team or as a group. And realistically, it kind of all boils down to like The Who, what, where, when, why, how style, kind of questioning. But it’s what happened before. What happened? When I’ve looked at this other thing, what didn’t happen when someone did something? Those sorts of questions are really good indicators that you’re going to have. Some kind of quality thinking as an outcome, and I I you know I like to say sort of asking produces clarity because even in your own head, especially when you’re looking at giant websites or you’re trying to put together a standard standard set of deliverables for something quite complex. It it does help to ask lots of questions for yourself because it can unpick that. That sort of big pile of spaghetti.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, that makes sense. When you’re looking at task asking those questions. But I think it’s it’s wider than that. I think if someone who’s a critical thinker, which is obviously we said it’s the foundation towards creative thinking and strategic thinking, then you need to be curious about all the things that are around you. So if you’re an additional agency and your job is to just do the SEO well, you should still understand how marketing works. You should still understand how sales work. You know you need to be curious of other things because without the data, without that rigour that comes with it, then you cannot interrogate the data as well.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, yeah.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
As you could do. So if somebody says, oh, I remember I was talking to somebody who’s an SEO expert. And I said, So what does the new Google algorithm? Going to do. And it’s not. I I don’t consult. On that. But I was aware that like it’s it’s. In my clients. That. Yeah, that’s the thing. I’m. Talking about influence and they I. Should know about that. So I was asking him in a conversation and he was like, well, what algorithm change? And I was thinking, well, Google brought it, brought out over three weeks ago. How come? Like I was like, you’re not an expert.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
One of the 300 a year, yeah.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
And it wasn’t any good for him to say it. But I’m I’m doing that. And it’s not. Really my thing? It’s just and I think that’s the thing you’ve. Got to be curious. About the stuff that’s around. You because when you have all. Those data points you can link them. Together and come up.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, yeah. Well, this, this, this is this is the beautiful thing about that, that the clarity that critical thinking can produce in your own head.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
With something inventively drugs.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
When you’ve got that, you know that I remember what they’re called, the kind of a. It looks like a a diagram loads of dots, all the lines joined together, and you can kind of move it almost in three dimensions. And that’s what critical thinking can allow for. Those pathways can connect a little bit better. Obviously I’m visually seeing that in my head and no one else can see it by. Now I should have thought about that as a slide that would have been a great slide to have, damn it next time. But it but I always think that kind of those dots that that you’re joining by having other areas of expertise. Or other areas of experience. They’re the things which make this curiosity that make that make critical thinking even more beautiful. And like you don’t get those bits without curiosity.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
It’s also if you’re curious as a critical thinker, you’re asking questions like, where did that come from? What’s the source? What biases are are there? Does this person have an agenda? You know, it’s questions like those curious questions that enables you to evaluate properly when you’re doing the critical thinking. So it’s not just taking things at face value, it’s looking around that and saying, aha, how did you come to that conclusion?
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
I agree completely.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Or somebody’s telling you something like so where? Did you see that I? Mean it’s a. Big if if.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Which should it should make you a hell of a lot more cynical as well. If you follow. We’ve watched the news for five minutes and ask some critical thinking questions in.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
You see it on.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Your head.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, it does it it it’s and and I think that’s the problem is that people are so used to being critical with their thinking, they’re not being open in critical thinking. And if you’re open, you’re quite clear with the agenda. You’re just searching to evaluate and to make your own decision as to what’s the right thing to do, and you can only do that if you understand the context of the challenge. It’s is in front. Of you. And if you don’t, if you’re not. Curious about? That then you’re never going to solve it, and you’ve also got to be the theory. Critical thinkers is that they’re it’s a reflective thing, so you need to know about yourself, you know, do you have a particular vice? In a certain way. You know, are you more drawn to this thing? Is certain sources more important to you? Because if you don’t know yourself, how can you make? Objectives you know. If you. Don’t know that.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah. And I and I, I reckon I reckon that good critical thinkers know. That other people. Also think the same way or slightly different which. Which means that you get a much better, nicer way of of, of, of having a conversation with people, because even a challenge in a a from a from someone where they don’t agree with you is is a hell of a lot nicer to have if you know. That they’ve applied. Similar levels of effort to their thinking. Hello, Bebe. Hey, I put you on screen as well. So you. So you’re famous. Now again, you’re always famous. I put you on the.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Hello, Phoebe.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Screen for the moment. But yeah, I think I think that if you remember that other people think. Which is silly to say, but quite a lot of people go. This is my idea. This is my thinking, therefore this. Must be it. And then when someone comes up with another counterpoint or a different idea, or what happens? You argue and.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, I think people have become used to seeing opinion as. Fact I have this opinion. Therefore it’s true. And then when somebody says and what basis is that opinion for people get angry? Yeah. So, I mean, if you’re a digital agency, then you need to find ways of contextualising how you ask that question. So you don’t upset the client, but you can’t avoid answering that question, because sometimes if you’re making a solution based on a on a fallacy, some sort of falsehood, then you’re not going to deliver and you’ll be in trouble for not delivering. So it’s much better to ask the questions upfront. And to demonstrate that thinking, even if it takes a bit longer because the solution’s faster once you’ve done the.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Absolutely. Just had a comment here from from Andy, he said so many times I’ve had to get back, get my team to redo or rethink work or hover over it. Now I can’t see it redo work that by asking. So what or what’s the source of this info because they’ve not been critical about the data that they’ve seen. And I think I think that’s a really important thing. It’s there, there’s, there’s a fantastic book which I recommend anyone read. It was written by a I believe he’s a doctor, and it was, it’s called factfulness. And it’s that kind of where did that data come from kind of mindset? Where did that, how did you get that? Where did you come? Where you’ve come to this big conclusion. Have you applied the right sort of thinking behind the the validity of this, the, the the way it was captured, that sort of stuff. So good, good, good point there Andy.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, in my book I talk about Mavericks here. Book, blog, book, Blog What’s the book called? Ohh, the Maverick paradox. The secret power behind successful leaders and I in that in the book I talk about how Mavericks believe nothing and test everything. And that’s not about being super critical. It’s like. Like until we’ve done that critical thinking on however you’ve presented this problem or this or or this solution, it doesn’t exist. Yeah, so quite often it’s when you have to provide a solution to something, you push people further than the point that they’ve started talking to you to say, OK, I understand this path. Let’s go back and then you tell me what led up to that path so that we can then. Test the whole line.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah. And I I think and to a follow up point that Andy just made, you gotta be really careful with. Balancing how much you give people and how much you, you obviously don’t give them because sometimes they like clients are super busy. You’re super busy and if you explain to them, here’s everything. And here’s the fullness of of this information. They’re not gonna they’re not gonna have the time or the the effort or the energy. To want to apply the the the thinking that they should do afterwards. I think if you obviously this comes with trust and over time that that can that can happen because you’ve exhibited that you know you you are doing what you’re doing and you know what you know and you’ve proven that you are a critical critical thinker. But you if you. If you don’t have that trust immediately, then it’s very hard for that person to understand where that’s come from. And I think I think and I don’t know how you feel in this, but every single thing in the world that is a conversation between one and one and more than another person. Is essentially a negotiation, not from a sales point of view, not necessarily from a trying to get something out of anyone point of view. But everyone has come from a different place. Whether you’ve grown up together, you’re still a different person, so your brain works ever so slightly differently. You think about things ever so slightly differently and. I think be having that kind of layer of critical thinking in your mind before you behave before you act. It can make help you get more out of your life. You’re more able to apply a layer of empathy that you wouldn’t have done in the past, or you’re more able to to get some kind of. Value out of a relationship because you’ve kind of thought about stuff that you wouldn’t necessarily have done in the in in the.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah. And I think I think that’s a great point and I think it leads back to that whole testing assumptions because. There’s one of. The things you do critical thinking is that you test your assumptions and you test their assumptions and the way we’re talking makes. It sound like. It’s some sort of robotic eval kind. Of way and that’s. Not what we’re saying because we’re saying. Yes, it doesn’t mean you can sit there with a checklist. It’s just that you’re gonna set OPS, you know. What they’re they’re thinking, you know, why do you think this will have that happen and you use your tonality and your voice and your body language to to? Show that you’re. Not sitting there with a with a. Pen and going right. No, no, no.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
And and and that’s. The thing and and and what what I think happens quite well with very good critical thinkers is when when you’ve when you. Kind of realise. That you’re not necessarily right. You might have done all the good thinking up front, but there’s a piece that’s missing and that other person has. Brought that to you. If you drag your heels and don’t get with the programme at that point or kind of offer some kind of false commitment to going forwards in their direction, then you’ve wasted a hell of a lot of energy on both sides and the whole point of negotiation isn’t to have one winner. It’s to have essentially no real loser in that’s in that sense when it’s coming to people talking to each other. Try not to lose, but don’t try. And don’t try and win either. It’s a good way to. It’s a good way to to kind of think about this like it’s it’s just a negotiation in a positive ethical. Hey, got a question here from Beebe actually, which modern philosopher is great to follow in terms of critical thinking, hopefully by modern you mean in the cosmological sense? Because I can think of some stoic philosophers from.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Greek history. He’s the father of critical thinking, isn’t he?
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, I I don’t know. B is the answer to that one. And my personal feeling on critical thinking is. You go back. To the very beginning, and it is Socrates. And I think that. Quite a lot of it’s almost like whether that was written by him or not, or whether it was written by someone else. It is almost like the most reduced sort of element you can get to, but from a a newness point of view and and I and I and I’m, I’m not trying to plug your book again. Doing this but. You literally have written the book on it, so I would recommend that you read judithe book Phoebe. It is. It’s verging on philosophy. If you take it that way, but I think I think the way that it’s it’s spoken is. Not good or written is quite good. Sorry. It’s it’s more there’s an applicable layer to it as much as anything else if that’s if that makes sense. And I don’t know anyone fun anymore, baby, you know that. I’ve I’ve. I’ve stopped being fun months and months ago. One of the one of the things that you specifically. Brought up when we were talking the other day due this was that you kind of gotta have courage and also really have to work on evaluation evaluation. Do you wanna talk about that for a.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, I think especially now especially the way the. World is where it’s all driven. By what the optics look like. Who said what on social media and the. The durge of. Experts because people don’t want listen to expertise because they might have committed dissonance. I think you need real courage to turn around and be a critical thinker because. To evaluate to, to be critically thinking, it’s more than one or two questions. You know, it’s a number of questions and people can lose patience with that or say you are always being critical. And even if you contextualise, I mean it, it goes away by saying you know this is how I. I now talk about I ask questions as a way of figuring out how things. Work, you know?
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah. And you asked a lot of questions.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
It’s about. As a diagnostic tool, so I say when I ask questions, it’s a diagnostic tool. I’m trying to figure out how to get to the point you want, so it’s a diagnostic tool. And that helps, but I think you need courage because people will not like you, especially if, especially if you work in an organisation where people go by feelings and instinct and you start saying, yeah, but if we follow this path, how’s that going to work? Or you read this report. But who is this person who wrote the report? People aren’t going. To love you for it in the. Beginning so it takes courage to stand. Out there and say.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
No. Yeah, I one, one thing. One thing I learned actually. And and this not to go back to the negotiation perspective too much, but there’s there’s a a fantastic ex FBI negotiator called Chris Voss. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him. He wrote a book called them. Never split the difference. Think it’s called and one thing that, yeah, there’s one thing which I’ve learned from actually reading the articles on the Black Swan Group website is to to kind of run through an accusation audit early on. So when you’re, if you’re worried about the the the the questions and the evaluation that you might have to do on someone or something and it’s the early days of them. Knowing that this is how you. Behave. You can kind. Of run an accusation audit in a sense like look. I don’t wanna be that guy. I want to do the best and you know that I’m here to do my best. I am sorry in advance if this is annoying, but it is coming from a good place. Please don’t hate me. Here’s my list of 50,000 questions. And then the worst thing they can do is agree with you. That you are that guy. At the end of it, and that can’t make someone annoyed if you’ve basically said. Up front. I’m. I’m gonna. I’m gonna ask a few questions. Which you might not enjoy too much.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, and it all sits in the context of. Who you. Are so if you’ve. Demonstrated that you do things from. And equitable base and integrity base. You’re not, you’ve got no hidden agenda. Then those questions are easier to accept. But if you’re a closed off individual and they haven’t had a chance to sample who you are, then they can become more threatened by their questions because sometimes by being a critical thinker, you are. Calling to question somebody else’s lack of thinking. So you have to be aware of that when you’re doing it.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, and and and that’s hard especially and and I know that all businesses have have their own individual types of cultural kind of strategies with these things and and and and issues. But in a digital agency you’re dealing. With mid, middle-aged people who may be running the business on the younger end of the. Middle-aged levels. Ish and then early 20s like early like just just graduated level. People who who, who, who are the towards the bottom end of the business and that’s not to say that they’re not worth anything. But because that’s the level they are in the right. Now it’s really hard to to not kind of upset people when you have to behave in a certain way or you have to ask certain questions because some people haven’t had the skill yet or the the the education in life that some of these some of these things have to be thought in advance and it can be.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
And I think it’s a. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think there’s a huge difference. It shows you how old I am now, where you when you was, when you was at school, the university, whatever. And you had to find something out. You had to go. Go look at encyclopaedias. You had to take out eight books for three paragraphs, you know, so you learn to research. Really, really, really well. But now, with the Internet, a lot of people look for the 1st 1-2, maybe 3 links and then that’s research. But it’s not research.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, and and and and I think I think that that that has a that has a place here. And I think it’s the the exercising of the, the the muscles in your brain that allow for that kind of thing and and actually I think you you you were talking about this the other day is that you kind of need to exercise. These skills, which is. You have to have the courage, I think, to go back to that last slide. You have to have the courage, I think, to be able to consistently do something which feels uncomfortable for quite a while and sometimes it feels uncomfortable to you because you’re doing something which is an unusual thing in your own head. It also feels uncomfortable to other people who don’t like to be evaluated or feel. Criticise and but it it’s like me. I hate going to the gym and I know that if I don’t go then I get creaky and feel old. I go there and I don’t enjoy it, but the outcomes are making me feel more positive about going and being uncomfortable at the. Them again. So exercising your your brain is no different.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
No. And if you think that you, you can become committed or someone could be committed to a particular way of doing things that will drive a particular solution. And then you turn around through your critical thinking. And saying in. This hope that it’s not going to work for some people. You’ve just attacked the whole identity, the whole worldview. They they feel like they have the choice of ignoring you or changing entirely who they are. Right and. It’s not gonna. Go well so. You have to think about how can you help a person walk away from that distance in a way that’s gonna get to. The right solution. So they don’t feel like if I have to agree with you, I am nothing or I’m wrong or or whatever. It’s a bit like having a way that works really, really well. And then Google brings a completely new way of doing something that completely upends everything.
Speaker
Yeah, happens.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
All that would ever do that, huh? And and then you have to turn around and go. This doesn’t work anymore. And for some people that would be really hard because it’s worked like. This for the last two years.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
And and and I think that the I all, I feel like a broken record sometimes, but thankfully not everyone has listened to me. So they don’t remember and, but I often say that, you know quite a lot of the the, the most, most of the failed businesses on their tombstone, I envisaged a we’ve always done it this way. Kind of uh, phrase. And that’s usually because they’ve not been able to kind of apply the this has changed. What do we know what should work? What does work? What now doesn’t work? What kind of evaluation do we need to take on our own methodologies and our own thinking so that we can then be a step up from, from from the rest later on maybe?
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah. And you know what? It’s part of that courage, part of that evaluation, part of the stretch you’re talking about is to look at avoiding confirmation bias. So I think we critical thinking, you should search out these viewpoints of people who do not agree with. And then test out test that solution through that rather than finding going out and looking for people who do agree. And then you say like 25 people and they.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, yeah.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Agree. Go out, you know. So that’s fine.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Just done a survey of eight people and. It’s great. Everything was going great.
Speaker
When you go 5.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Eight people who always disagree with you and they’re not. It doesn’t mean that you would change your opinion, but it means that your. Argument is gonna be all the stronger as you can. To defend and reconsider how you feel about something and what the facts actually say.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, absolutely. Great. I’ve had a question here from Anna on Twitter. Any tips to build confidence when asking clients curious questions? So I’m guessing that I I’m guessing Anna’s asking that in relation to having kind of client calls or meetings when you need to get something out of them. That you don’t you physically can’t get without talking to them.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
I think confidence comes from. Self Knowledge and awareness of. Of what is it you’re trying to? Do and why? You’re trying to do. It because I mean, I think. If you ask the client. So this is the Maverick. You make. What is it? That you want. I ask one thing I asked people all. The time. Just what do you want? You want. Why? Yeah, and we’ll give it to you. You know, and when you start off with, just tell me what you want and they’ll tell you. What you want? And then you say, OK and then any question you ask from that point is a question they’re. Happy to answer. Because they know that you just want to give them what they want. Now they might not get what they want because it might.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Not be possible. But if you start off with what is it that you want, you can be confident that they will tell you.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah. And and I think I, I I think to to follow that up. I think with the the confidence building part of that is that. You can’t get it wrong because you’d have to be a. You you’d have had to pick to work with. The most horrible. Client for them to to beat you up mentally for asking a question which only helps ultimately get more for them and fine, you might not be as as confident as you Judith. And go what do? You want, but you can ask it in. An in in you you.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
I would laugh like that.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, well, I hope not. You can ask it in a in. A in a in a nicer way? Along the lines of, you know in in a. In one years time, when we’re talking about reviewing this contract, what what’s gonna make make I I used to say if I come to the the UM the the annual review, uh with a bottle of champagne, what thing is it gonna be that’s gonna pop that cork and then they usually say it’s thousand more leads. Or something else, whatever it might be. And that’s the thing that you can then frame all of your other questions around and it makes it, like, makes it less easy for them to be annoyed with lots of follow up questions. Because ultimately you don’t know their business, you’re not. You’re not. You’re not sitting at the desk with them all day, and you haven’t got 20 years experience in whatever that company. Might well be.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah. And there’s, as you said, there’s lots of ways to soften that you. Know what does success look like? What are the things that you’re going to measure me on? You know, as a digital agency, what’s the most important things or how do you like to, you know, good questions to ask scientists? How do you like to work with? Ex. You know, consultant or agency or whatever, because then you can ask, ask questions around those things and people will have a lot of time to ask that because they know you’re driving to.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
What they want in the end.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, I I agree. And we’ve got one more here. I think this ones, some of these is coming from all sorts of different places. Martin, how do you suggest we practise these skills? Well, after you’ve learned them, I’m guessing you’ve learned them. If you haven’t, we offer training at the OG Centre. But how would you? How would you normally practise these for me? I find myself kind. Of anything that I read that’s news style or anything that I see on social media that like there’s a because, you know what questions to ask. You can. See what what’s coming, but anything that kind of you think about a little more than you would have done in? In, at any point in terms of. Where did this come from? Why am I asking this question? Why am I asking the question why I’m asking this question straight away? What? What’s going on? That I’ve gotta find more out than maybe just keep asking questions in your head all the time. Be that four year old version of you.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, I think it’s like splitting it down to yourself. And the thing so will it come to yourself? You’re asking questions like, what do I feel about this? Why does this bother me? What’s missing? Why am I such? You know, so you’re. Trying to find. From yourself and to find out what bias is and how you feel about things. And then the actual item. You know a news report or something. Like that it’s. The same sort of thing that we’ve been talking about. It’s like what? What’s missing? When is it come from? If it comes from this newspaper and it’s? This side of the story. But this newspaper saying that’s side of the story, what is it? And sometimes it might, it might mean going back and looking at the the newspapers and how they cover. Similar stories to get an idea so. You know, so a safe way to practise the skills is probably at home with the stuff that you’ve seen engage with to begin with. And then when you’re comfortable that you, you can answer those things, then try it. Try it out at work. Try it. Out in meetings.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, and and and another really good question from Bebe. Actually, she notices that a lot of people ask questions that aren’t quite real questions. They’re they’re essentially an an opinion, which is is is masked as a question. Like, why do you have a such? A stupid hat. For example, you know that’s not asking about why you have a hat so. How would you? How would you define what a like a pure question would be that how? Because I I know the Internet tells me every day that I’ve got loads of biases and I don’t even. Know what they are. So how do I know if the question I’m asking is kind of a pure, honest proper question?
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
It’s a really good question, I would say is if a question that the question you’re asking drives to the most. Honest answer from the other person. It’s a pure question. If you if the question you’re asking is to lead to them agreeing with you or your viewpoint or your solution, it’s not a pure question, but if it’s if it’s diagnostic to reach a point of understanding, it’s more likely to be pure.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, and and and I guess in a sense that means you have to apply. Say that that superpower of critical thinking in real time on your own. Thinking you’re kind of in the matrix, the inception of asking your own questions of your own questions before you actually ask those things. So who does this? Does the answer to this question benefit me in the sense of the context that we’re discussing this client call or whatever it might or be so? If we were if. We were about to have to do this webinar and you were wearing a stupid hat. I could say, why are you wearing a stupid? That and that would have been a legitimate question because we’re about to do a webinar, but that wouldn’t have been a very legitimate question if it was stupid hat day and I didn’t know.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
I think you. Know that that’s good. I think if you if you’re an active listener, I you’re listening to understand. Not to be understood. And you’re affirming this stuff then your your head is not full of additional. You’re not listening for confirmation bias. You’re actively engaged in the conversation to draw out what the other person is trying to tell you, so you understand it and your follow up questions is is checking your understanding of what they’re saying. And that keeps you more on the. Pure side of the questioning. Other than I’ve got, I’m trying to I. I guess if you’re thinking of. Your questions as a marketing ploy. I want to funnel you into one set solution. Then it’s not pure, but if you want to open it up so you can totally understand what it. Is that they want.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah, yeah. I I I think.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Then it’s more like. If you are not, if you’re, if you’re aware that you might not be able to provide a solution once you’ve asked the questions, but you still ask the questions, it’s pure.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Yeah. And so in a sense, if you ask a question with vulnerability in mind. You are probably asking a more pure question.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, and critical thinkers are quite humble in that way. They are prepared to be vulnerable and.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
Exception to the rule.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
This ain’t wrong with vulnerability.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
And and with that in mind, and all that vulnerability that I’ve. Just shown there. Thank you, Judith, for joining me on this webinar.
Speaker
You’re welcome.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
This this is. This is 1. Of my sort of favourite topics when it comes to agency stuff, because the the juxtaposition between process. And thinking actual thinking and process. And and and I think that it this is the sort of thing which if you have started watching this now bookmarket come back follow the subscribe to the channel because you’re going to see loads more good, good webinars coming up and we’re our next one which is on the 19th of January. Because obviously Christmas and stuff we were gonna do it on Christmas Day, but we didn’t want to upset you because you know Steve Duvic is a a a family man. He doesn’t wanna do. Doesn’t wanna do a webinar from Christmas Day. I’m not that fussed. We’re gonna be talking about the really important. Protecting your agency kind of conversation around getting the proper IP and the right contracts. It isn’t as fun as critical thinking from my perspective, but I can guarantee that it’s something that if you don’t already do this properly, if your contract is like 18 pages long, how many contracts have you seen in the past? South, where they’ve been so long that it takes an army of people with Red Pen to work out why there’s so many loopholes in this contract and. Sort of stuff you must work with. People who who have come to you in the past and said I’m like I I I don’t don’t know why these clients keep being able to leave and not pay and things. Like that, it’s just. Terrible, right? So, so so Steve runs a a division of international legal firm.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Yeah, yeah.
𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲
He’s gonna. Do this all with a smile, and I think we’ll probably talk an awful lot about Marvel, especially the Transformers as well, because that’s a lot more interesting. Maybe some analogies, but again, thank you so much for being here, Judith. And thanks very much for everyone who’s been here now and also those of you who’ve made it to the end. On the rerun. Thanks very much.
𝗝𝘂𝗱𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗚𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗻
Thank you.