Listen here: https://www.theseomindset.co.uk/episode/differences-between-leadership-management-chris-simmance
The Transcription
Sarah McDowell
Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the SEO Mindset podcast. This week, we have the wonderful Chris Simmons joining us and we’re going to be talking about managing and leading teams. So who is Chris? Who is Chris Simmons? So he is the founder of the OMG Centre, where digital agencies learn, build, grow and exit. Chris is known as the agency coach and has around ten years of leadership, intention, experience. Now, before I get Chris into the episode, I just want to give you all a little reminder that if you do enjoy our podcast, you can support us by donating via Buy Me A Coffee. So there will be a link in the show notes where you get more information on that and you can also connect with us. So if you want to shout out to us, you want to get in touch, you want to say hi, whatever, you can do that on Twitter. So if you follow the SEO Mindset Co UK Twitter, you’ll be able to find us there. There’s also a link in the show notes. Right, let’s welcome Chris to the show. Hello, Chris.
Chris Simmance
Hello. I’d love to be bought a coffee. I was just thinking about that.
Sarah McDowell
Are you coffee or tea?
Chris Simmance
Very strong, very black. Coffee only.
Sarah McDowell
Me too.
Chris Simmance
Apparently it makes you a psychopath. According to someone on Twitter once, it’s not the coffee that makes you a psychopath, you are one, if you like it.
Sarah McDowell
People have some weird ideas about food and drink and what it means. Isn’t it, like all the stuff that I’ve read it. But anyway, I can still say Happy New Year because it’s relatively new, isn’t it? So happy New Year.
Chris Simmance
Happy New Year to you. I really wish there was some kind of deadline at which you stop having to say that. I feel like every call and every email, you have to say it because it’s polite, but actually, everyone’s done it now. We’ve all been there.
Sarah McDowell
I think that people say it right up until, like, the 31 January, don’t they? And in February.
Chris Simmance
Anyway, happy New Year.
Sarah McDowell
There we go. We’ve got that admin out the way. Yeah. So earlier I said that me and you would be discussing managing and leading teams. So I think a good place for us to start is for you to answer the question, what is the difference between management and leadership?
Chris Simmance
So there’s a really simple sentence that explains the difference, I think. And then there’s obviously a little bit more depth behind it. But I think managers do things well, leaders do good things. So a leader is someone that essentially they set the vision, they create a culture, they create values for people to be led, hence the title. You want to follow someone who is the leader. If you’ve got someone who’s in a leadership position, who you have to follow and you’re not that keen on and you don’t like the things that they have to say and whatever, then actually, you’re not being led by that person. You’re having to just follow them through hierarchy. Whereas with a manager, that person is again, it’s in the name. They manage tasks, they manage people, they manage things. So a manager is given direction in which way to go by the leader, and the leader sets the direction.
Sarah McDowell
Right. And I think that’s a really key what’s that word?
Chris Simmance
Distinction.
Sarah McDowell
Thank you. Struggling at the beginning there, when words just go from your mind, I’ve committed now. Okay, so would you say then that there are situations where you have both then?
Chris Simmance
Yeah. So in many smaller businesses, the leader will also be the manager because there isn’t availability for any kind of hierarchy. And in other situations, you may have a manager who steps into a leadership position for certain tasks or certain roles. So let’s say it’s a small business. I’m the owner and therefore the leader. I set the tone, I set the direction. But I also have to create briefs for people. I have to cheque in on those briefs. I have to delegate clearly. I have to provide the right levels of feedback and things like that. I also have to take feedback as the manager who’s also the leader. If you then open the business up and you grow and you’re much larger and you have a management layer, I may, as a manager of an SEO team or a PPC team or content team or a PR team, have to lead them in my own way as well.
Sarah McDowell
Because they have to follow me because I’m their main point of port of call all of the time. But I’m still given guidance on the direction that the business and the leader of the business wants to head into. So if you look at it from a perspective of say, let’s not get into politics, but a political party, you’ve got the Prime Minister or the President, they set the leadership direction for the country, whereas the managers in this hierarchy would be MPs or senators or whatever. So they lead their constituencies but they’re actually managing the activity that is directed by the top level of leadership.
Chris Simmance
So I’m guessing then that they’re quite different roles then. So being a manager or a leader, you probably need different skills.
Sarah McDowell
Yeah, very much so. And it’s not something everyone wants to hear, but not everyone can be a leader and it’s not because they’re bad people or anything like that. It’s because it’s not necessarily something you can actually learn to be. You can learn to do it, but you can’t learn to be it. And that comes from a certain type of mindset and maybe something to do with upbringing or just the way that you are as a human being, I’m not sure. But you know how they say like, not everyone wants leadership but sometimes it’s thrust upon them? Well, those people are usually mentioned in a kind of way based around, well, they were pretty good leaders. You don’t say they didn’t want leadership, but it was thrust upon them and they were terrible and we hated them and the history books say it all. Actually, most of the people that you say who had leadership thrust on them, somehow they actually turned out to be pretty good leaders because quite a lot of the leadership characteristics are relatively innate. The mechanical part of leadership is learning how to deliver it consistently because your basic human traits usually get in the way of being a good leader quite a lot of the time.
Sarah McDowell
With management it is a lot more granular people focused, you focus a lot more on individuals as opposed to a group and you have to be a lot more methodical. So quite a lot of people can learn to be a manager once you’ve got a good level of experience in a certain role and you’ve got a lot of experience in an industry as well as the role. So you know how the business functions, you know how the business works, you know how to be excellent at a role. You can learn management skills, and you can be a good manager because you’re good at following that kind of process. And as long as you’re not a bad person, you can usually be quite a good manager. You can’t just magic being a leader. And I think sometimes when I speak to digital agency leaders in particular, they’re really good at delivering work but they’re not necessarily good at the people bit, and that’s because they haven’t necessarily worked out the leadership layer yet.
Chris Simmance
So I suppose what’s important then is to have a bit of awareness about yourself. So let’s say, for example, you find yourself so you’re a manager, right, and you find yourself like you’re expected to lead, and that’s where you’re kind of being led into. That’s where you’re leaning in towards I suppose you’ve got to have the awareness of questioning, like, am I good for this role? Does this role suit me? And it’s okay. It’s not a failure if it doesn’t suit you, because not everyone can be a leader, right? But I suppose it’s about having that awareness and then having that courage to speak up and say and speak to who? Your bosses or stakeholders or people at the top and be like, we need to discuss this. I found myself in a leadership role. And yeah, I suppose about having that awareness and that conversation, isn’t it?
Sarah McDowell
Yeah, and I think all of any kind of role in which you’re working with people from a position of, let’s say, power, from one of a better way of putting it, so you have people who report to you whether that’s a leadership or a management role. A high level of self awareness is essential, and you need to be able to be honest with yourself as well. Something which I found in bad managers and bad leaders is they behave like they want one thing, but they feel like they want something else. And usually the conflict internally there creates a bit of a poisonous, toxic culture, if you know what you’re.
Sarah McDowell
You want and you know roughly how to get there, then you can create a set of values and purpose which allows for people to follow you more easily. You create clarity, you create consistency and it feels more natural. So you don’t feel like you’re having to lead, you feel like you’re just being yourself. And people will follow you because because they want to go where you’re going. From a management point of view, I don’t know what your career history is like, but I’m pretty sure that at some point in your history you’ve had a bad manager. And those people have probably been you probably remember them because of their personality versus their ability to do their job in most cases, and sometimes both. But for the most part, if you’re kind of not aware of your own kind of personal pitfalls for me, I’m really good at listening when I remind myself to listen, but that is a conscious thing I have to do and that’s when I’m in more of a conversational mode or trying to manage people. So I have to go into a conversation reminding myself I need to listen to this person, otherwise I can’t really help them or do what I need to do.
Sarah McDowell
And a bad manager wouldn’t necessarily know that.
Chris Simmance
And also you have to have it’s interesting because me and Tasman did an episode about the different types of listening and when to apply each one. So thank you for that promo because there you go. I can link to that in the show notes.
Sarah McDowell
Done. Find me a copy later.
Chris Simmance
Because if you’re not listening as a leader or a manager, then you end up hearing what you want to hear, don’t you? And then you provide a solution to that and then it’s not going to work because you’ve not understood. What is the root problem exactly?
Sarah McDowell
And I think there are other layers to this as well, which is not just self awareness, but kind of the awareness of the person that you’re listening to. Strengths and weaknesses as well. And I’m not saying weaknesses in a negative light, I mean in the sense of things they could learn or maybe things that might be their blind spots. So at the OMG Centre, what we have is part of a training programme of workplace strengths. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Emma genetics.
Chris Simmance
No. Sounds fancy.
Sarah McDowell
There’s all these psychometric tests, myers, Briggs, all those sorts of things. So Emma genetics essentially helps you to understand. If you were to say, see a pie chart of all of the energy you spend a day doing thinking based stuff, which percentages of your energy is best used in areas? So if you spend a lot of time doing analytical work and you really enjoy spending that time doing lots of analytical work on spreadsheets and things like that, then that’s great. You’re using that energy in a good way. So it’s quite positive use of time and you feel good. Conversely, if you’re not very good at analytics work, but you have to do a lot of it, then you feel like you’ve had a drudge of a day and things like that. What that does as a tool is it also helps to break down a bit like a personality profile. You can understand whether or not someone’s going to be able to listen to a certain level of briefing. Because if I go into too much depth in one vein or another, they might not quite capture it. But if I know what I’m like and I know what the individuals I’m managing are like, then I can tailor the same brief to a smaller group of people much better.
Sarah McDowell
And it reduces any kind of friction because you’re creating clarity.
Chris Simmance
I think that is something that is often overlooked is the importance of understanding your team and who you are working with. Because we’re all different. We all have our own strengths, we all have our own weaknesses. Right? It’s okay to have weaknesses because we’re human. At the end of the day, I think you called them blind spots and stuff and yeah, it’s so important to know what you’ve got to work with and the different personalities and who you’ve got in your team because then you can be more successful, right?
Sarah McDowell
Absolutely. I’m going to get this wrong. I can’t remember. So there was a researcher, I think his surname was Tennenbaum. I think I’m going to say that that’s wrong, probably wrong, so actually it’s definitely Tenanbaum. If you disagree, comment on the post or whatever. So there’s a type of management sort of methodology around looking at the situational, aspects of the task or the project and the traits of the person. So you balance these things together. So it may well be that in certain instances, you spend more time giving more information to someone to help them do a task, and you’re managing them more kind of hands on. Because either they’re really stressed or they’re really busy or they just need a lot more effort versus other people who may know exactly what they have to do. Exactly what they want to do. And those things balance with the workload and they’re fine. You would know that the situation and the traits of that person aligned to this is kind of like a low task job. I give you the brief in a slack message. You understand me? I understand you. You know, it’s got to be done by Wednesday and it’s done.
Chris Simmance
Yes.
Sarah McDowell
Being aware of the people you’re managing is just as important as being aware of yourself as the manager. Now, if you then extrapolate that into leadership, the big distinction there is that you’re setting the course and essentially you’re setting the course of the ship. You’re saying where you’re going, you’re saying generally how you’re going to get there and because you’ve done that and you’ve set the values. The people that you bring into onto that ship should be people that meet the values which then allow you to have better management of them later.
Chris Simmance
I just had a thought. So you’re kind of like you’re acting as the captain of the ship, right? Yeah. Because you’re steering, you’re strategizing, anything goes wrong, people come to you. And then the people in your team are the crew members. Right.
Sarah McDowell
The captain of the ship doesn’t steer either direction. They set the tone and they decide how problems are dealt with. But they don’t do the steering, they don’t clean the toilet, they don’t mop the deck, they don’t do any of those things. Those people, they’re the person at the front of the thing on a podium, telling everyone where to go, how to behave, what to do. And everyone else is then the management of that direction. If the course goes awry, the person who manages the navigation, deals with the person who manages the steering and so on.
Chris Simmance
I mean, in this scenario, I think I’d rather be the captain.
Sarah McDowell
Oh, yeah, most people would rather be.
Chris Simmance
The captain, but anyway right, Chris, we are going to take a short break now and it’s great first part, I think, very valuable lots for our listeners. When we are back, we’re going to be talking about more skills and general advice for managing and leadership and also what to do if you’ve got awkward feelings around having to manage or lead friends. Right? Because I think that’s an important one to discuss too. Absolutely. We will be back, folks.
Speaker 3
Hello there. It’s Sarah. So the third edition of Blue Arrays in house SEO Success Book is now available to buy. Now, this book features insights from 29 in house SEO experts and you may recognise one of the Coauthors. Yes, that’s right, I am one of the coauthors and my chapter is all about inclusive marketing for the LGBTQ plus community. And I have to say, I am so honoured because I’m in great company as the coauthor lineup is amazing. It’s fantastic. It’s phenomenal. Phenomenon.
Chris Simmance
Why did I end with a word.
Speaker 3
That I can’t really say? Now, this book serves to help understand the struggles that in house SEOs have, but to also educate, inspire and captivate as in house SEO experts that have co authored, co authored go with that word, this book have shared their knowledge and expertise. Now, time to share some even more exciting news. I mean, that’s exciting in itself, but the founder of Blue Array, Simon Schneiders, has been very, very kind and has offered to give our listeners so those that listen to the SEO Mindset podcast, five free books. Now, if you are interested, if you want to get your hands on one of these free copies, then all you need to do is drop us an email. Our email address is the SEO Mindset [email protected]. Alternatively, you can find us on Twitter. So our handle is SEO mindset. Pod I will make sure that those are in this episode’s, Show Notes. But, yeah, all you need to do is reach out and tell us that you’re interested in getting your hands on one of these free copies and we will pick a winner at random. So good luck, everyone, and, yeah, take care of yourself.
Speaker 4
Hey, Sarah. Here from the SEO mindset. Just a quick message to say if you would like to support the podcast, if you love what me and Tasman are doing, then please do head on over to the SEO Mindset Co Ukdonate. I’ll make sure there’s a link in this episode, Show Notes, and that will take you to our Buy Me A Coffee page. So here you can buy us as many coffees as you like to support us. So each coffee is a donation and also you can leave us a message so that will make it easy for us to give you a shout out. Also, if you would like to reach out to us, maybe you want to say hello, ask us a question, request a shout out, maybe you want to come on as a guest. We have Twitter.
Chris Simmance
Yes.
Speaker 4
So again, if you head on over to the SEO Mindset Co ukTor again, I’ll put a link in the Show Notes. That’s how you can reach out to us, both me and Tasman. So, yes, thank you very much. Welcome back, Chris.
Chris Simmance
Are you still with us? Are you still with us for part two?
Sarah McDowell
No, I’m on mute. Yeah, I’m here. Hello.
Chris Simmance
That shouldn’t still be a thing, should it? But hey ho. Hey ho. Right, so let’s get into part two, then. And, yeah, like, obviously we’ve sort of touched our on what makes you a good leader manager, and we touched on skills, but is there anything else that you want to sort of talk about? About how to be a good leader or manager?
Sarah McDowell
Management is typically a sort of a short horizon in terms of time frame. Leadership is a longer horizon in terms of time frame. You know, where you’re going in five years, say, where as a manager, you’re dealing in usually quarters or half years or at a push, an entire year. So with management, you need to be very patient because you’re dealing with people and you need to be very patient because you’re delegating and you’re giving and receiving feedback a lot. You also need to be a good manager, the ability to leave shit at the door when you come into work, so to speak. So if you’ve had a bad day or a bad evening and you’ve got to manage people, you shouldn’t be bringing that to work with you. You can have a bad day and you can say, hey, look, guys, I had a really bad night last night, or had an argument with someone or Dad’s il, or Mum’s ill or something like that. And that if you’ve got a good team of good people, they’ll understand that. But if you treat people badly because you’ve had a bad day, you’ve got to be mindful.
Sarah McDowell
But short horizons of intense patience is required. If you’re a manager, almost every time something will be delivered back to you the first time and it won’t be quite right and you know in your head what it’s supposed to be, but it’s very hard for someone else to deliver it exactly how you want. You need to be very patient with leadership. You need to have if it’s your own business especially, you need to be able to have a lot of patience for all the other people and all the other issues that will come through as a leader. But you need to have the patience for this five year plan that you should have and you should be following along that course because it doesn’t happen immediately. So you need to build in sort of the leading measures of success as you go, so you feel like you’re succeeding as you go. The problem with that, obviously, is course corrections. And a course correction is essentially a euphemism for the business equivalent of a punch in the face something didn’t go to plan. And if you run any kind of digital agency business or digital marketing business, you’re going to get a lot of punches in the face.
Sarah McDowell
It’s going to be client stuff, it’s going to be algorithmic stuff. There’s going to be all sorts of things that go on that essentially force you to have to change something, and you’re having to deal with clients and sales and marketing and all those other things, as well as the people in the setting of the leadership direction. And I think a really good leader goes, okay, that hurt a little bit, I’ll deal with that next, but we’ve got a direction, we know where we’re going to be in five years, and you maintain a level of calm around the rest of your team. Otherwise that kind of thing kind of can kill the leadership or the trust that people have in you. And you look at any leader who was popular at the time, they were popular the second that there’s a chink in that armour because they’ve done something that they shouldn’t have done or said something they shouldn’t have said or have let something get the better of them, it’s very easy to start kind of pulling at that and that’s it.
Chris Simmance
Yes, definitely. There’s so much that you just said there that I think is really important and yeah, like essential to sort of be mindful of and yeah, I think part of it as well is not taking things personally.
Sarah McDowell
Often it’s not, but it’s so easy for it to be taken personally because you’re a human being.
Chris Simmance
It is, but then I suppose that’s where if you have empathy and hopefully the other people that you’re working with has empathy as well, then. Yeah. You don’t know what’s going on in someone else’s life, do you? But you always need to remain calm, like you say, don’t you? I like the analogy of like when you see a graceful swan underneath.
Sarah McDowell
Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Simmance
It’s feet have feet. Yes, they do. Now flippers feet. It’s chaos underneath. And I love the point about not bringing shit to work. Leave that. It’s going to be hard, isn’t it? But I think if you can just explain and just say, look, I had a bad night or a bad day, I might be a bit snappy, I’m sorry. Yeah, it’s about not being defensive as well.
Sarah McDowell
Exactly. If you’re a leader, and I learned this the hard way, by being terrible at it, so if you’re a leader who say, you’ve had a bad day, bad night or something, metaphorical punch in the face, hopefully not a real one, and you let it get the better of you, it impacts the people around you. And if you foster a culture of trust, and in that trust, you allow vulnerability. People speak up when they’re not feeling quite right and they don’t feel like it’s a sign of weakness or lack of value or inability. So if you have that culture where you allow vulnerability at the very top and at the very bottom, but the vulnerability is based entirely on trust, then you can have a bad day as a leader or a manager or as a member of the team, and you can say, look, just so you know, Cat died last night. Really sad. Got a lot of work to do. If I’m a bit snippy, that’s why. Sorry.
Chris Simmance
Take accountability. Own it. Wonderful. All right, I’m going to move the conversation on slightly. So what advice would you give to those that have awkward feelings around having to manage or lead employees who are friends? So, let’s say, for example, someone has worked in a company for a while and they’ve worked hard and they’ve got promotions and they’ve made friends within the team, but their last promotion has actually meant, okay, now I’m having to lead and manage employees who are actually my friends. That’s a hard transition, isn’t it?
Sarah McDowell
Yeah, it’s really hard. The flippant answer is try and fire that other person. Get rid of them. Just fire the new subordinate. Just get rid of them, never speak to them again. Delete them on Twitter and Facebook and that’s it done.
Chris Simmance
It’s a little extreme.
Sarah McDowell
It’s a bit extreme. Probably illegal from an HR point of view. So that was not real advice. So it is super hard. The thing that you always have to take into account is that the relationship with the person that you have is based on a parity in terms of the hierarchy. Now, obviously, outside of work, everyone’s the same, more or less. Outside of work, you don’t have hierarchy in many senses, professionally at least. So when you come into work and it’s that first day. The first thing you should do as a manager anyway, when you take a management position, is do one to ones with your team. You should be having conversations openly with your team and saying, hey, you may or should or you do already know who I am as a person in the team, in the business. This is what I stand for in that sense, make it super clear. And I think one thing that’s lacking an awful lot in general, professional life, is this ability to create clarity. And I feel like I’ve said clarity about eight times, you have to have a little look on the transcription, but clarity is usually the thing that causes conflict.
Sarah McDowell
Now, if I have a one to one with my entire team and it’s the same one to one agenda but I’m dealing with each person individually, if I then have that one to one with someone who is a friend or a good acquaintance in work, and you had a good laugh at work and things like that. You set the expectations and you say, personally, my feelings don’t change. Obviously. Last week I was your friend, now I’m your manager, but I can be your friend outside of work. But there are no preferential treatments. There’s no we cannot now go out for lunch together every day, because it does foster a sense of them and us. And I don’t and that isn’t a thing that I want to do. I’m sacrificing that part of my friendship with you as much as you are because I’m losing what you’re losing. But outside of work, we can still be friends.
Chris Simmance
Oh, that was like yeah.
Sarah McDowell
Has to come from, like, a bit of you have to suffer the pain of that conversation because it’s yeah.
Chris Simmance
I was just going to say, I think you need to be aware that it’s going to be an awkward conversation right. And you don’t know how that other person is going to react. You can’t control how they’re going to react, but I suppose you just need to be prepared for that, right?
Sarah McDowell
Yeah.
Chris Simmance
We need to have this conversation.
Sarah McDowell
If you have the conversation, you create the clarity. If that person takes it the wrong way and behaves badly, then perhaps they weren’t the friend you thought they were.
Chris Simmance
I mean, that’s deep in it.
Sarah McDowell
Yeah.
Chris Simmance
Mic drop.
Sarah McDowell
Boom.
Sarah McDowell
Exactly.
Chris Simmance
No, I get it. Yeah. And as adults, you have to have these awkward conversations from now and then, don’t you? And yes, it feels awkward. Yes. It’s not going to feel nice at the time, but it’s going to help you out massively in the long run.
Sarah McDowell
Yeah. And I know we passed this bit a second ago about tips for being good manager leader thing, but one thing which I think if you’re in any of those situations, being comfortable with silences is, like, super powerful. So if you have to have an awkward conversation or you have to have a difficult conversation or you have to have a conversation with anyone where they need to produce or provide some kind of feedback to you. When you’ve said the thing you have to say and it’s been prepared in the right way and you’ve said it in the right way, you say no more, and you remain silent until that person speaks. It feels really horrible. You get used to it. And you get used to it.
Chris Simmance
It must feel long as well. Like, you probably only silent for what, like 5 seconds? But 5 seconds.
Sarah McDowell
A good example would be you have to give feedback to someone that’s not that good of good level of feedback, and they’re a friend of yours, and you say, you know, how do you feel that that project was delivered? And you then stay silent. They know that they don’t want to have to say bad stuff, and they’re not willing to come out and speak. Next. Often, if you’re not comfortable with the silences, you go from this perspective, or from that perspective, is there anything you could have done here? And you kind of start putting the words in their mouth, which doesn’t do them any good because they don’t own anything. Then there’s no accountability. But it also doesn’t do you any good because you need to create this kind of segregation of I’m managing and feeding back, and you’re taking the feedback. And it’s really hard if you haven’t started that conversation with your current friend or any of your new team members around how you will behave. And owning that silence is hugely valuable.
Chris Simmance
Yes. So get familiar with that, people. That’s what we’re saying. Unfortunately, Chris, we have run out of time, and I do need to don’t apologise. It’s on me. Right? I am the host. I am controlling the time. I mean, I wish I could control time. Anyway, great. That’s a side point. So there’s a couple of questions I want to squeeze in before we finish.
Sarah McDowell
Go ahead.
Chris Simmance
I think this is a great just drop my pencil. Sorry about that. This has been a great episode. So, yeah, just a couple more questions.
Speaker 4
Just to wrap up.
Chris Simmance
So, first, one key thing people should take away from today’s episode. Go.
Sarah McDowell
Leadership and management are two totally separate things. You can make a manager, but you can’t make a leader.
Chris Simmance
Nice. Love it. Short, snappy to the point, full of value. Next question. Best career advice you have ever received?
Sarah McDowell
Okay, so this one’s a little bit longer, but only because there’s a point to it. So the best ever piece of piece of career advice I ever got from someone was, chris, you’re excellent at solving problems, but the reason you’re excellent at solving problems is because you create so many problems to solve. Think before you act. So the best piece of career advice I had was think before you act, which then led me into thinking around critical thinking and how does that work? And critical thinking is what prevents screw ups most of the time. So thinking before you act isn’t just, do I press save on that HD access file? It’s what happens after I press save on the HD access file. Is there anything I can test after that thing? What’s the long term implications of doing it this way or whatever?
Chris Simmance
I love that bit of advice. I love asking that question because I get so many varied answers and it’s wonderful. Right, last question, and then this is an easy one to answer. Where can people find you if they’ve listened to you? And like oh, I like the sound of Chris. I want to carry on the conversation. I want him to help me with stuff. Where can they find you?
Sarah McDowell
Omgcenter.org spelled the American way. C-E-N-T-E-R. Or you can find us on the OMG Community for Agency leaders. So it’s OMG Centerjoin, and unfortunately, almost every single one of you probably sees some kind of stuff on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube shorts, et cetera. So if you do see us a lot, get in touch, have a chat.
Chris Simmance
Sounds like you’re out there. And yeah, easy to connect with.
Sarah McDowell
Well, you can see the bags under my eyes, right?
Chris Simmance
Not at all.
Sarah McDowell
Oh, good.
Chris Simmance
Camera is excellent, right? So big. Thank you. To you, Chris. You’ve got a very jam packed schedule, so thank you for finding the time to talk to little old B on the SEO Mindset podcast.
Sarah McDowell
Thank you. I’ve been listening for ages, and actually, it was after listening to Joe Turnbull’s episode that I thought I’d better make an effort and see if I can get on as well.
Chris Simmance
Wonderful. Right, well, thank you for supporting and listening to us. And now you’re on the show. That’s it? Yeah, it’s great. So I would just like to say thank you to our listeners for joining us for another episode of the podcast. Again, a little reminder that if you do enjoy our podcast, you can support us by donating via Buy Me a Coffee. So there’s a link in the Show Notes there, so you donate by donating us a coffee, basically. And again, we’re on Twitter, so if you want to reach out to us, say hi, suggest a topic, give us some feedback, whatever, then, yeah, go on to the semindet co UK Twitter. And that link is also in the Show Notes. Now, Chris, we always end every episode with a pledge. So this bit is not podcast friendly, but can you put your hand on your heart? And I am going to pledge, and I want you to hear the pledge.
Sarah McDowell
Okay.
Chris Simmance
I am an SEO professional who prioritises mindset and personal growth and not just rankings, improving visibility and algorithms. Did you feel that pledge?
Sarah McDowell
I felt it, yeah. Do I have to do the same?
Chris Simmance
No.
Sarah McDowell
Few. Okay, good. I felt the pledge.
Chris Simmance
I feel it wonderful. Right. Thank you again, Chris.
Sarah McDowell
Thank you.
Chris Simmance
And yes, everyone else, take care.