Voiceover Guy:

Hello, and thanks for coming along to … And We Have An Office Dog, the digital agency podcast, where we talk to agency owner directors, and learn more about what makes them tick. From the things that make them similar, to the things they’d rather have known sooner, where they’ve success, and where they’ve learned some hard lessons, all will be revealed with your host, Chris Simmance, the agency coach, and he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. Okay, so let us begin. Over to you, Chris.

Chris Simmance:
Thanks voiceover guy on the podcast today. We’ve got Anthony. How are you doing? How are you going?

Anthony Barone:
Very well, great to be here.

Chris Simmance:
It’s been God knows how long that we’ve been trying to get this sorted. So I’m really glad that we finally got the date right between one of us moving it and the other one moving it and then thinking that we’ve moved it. Um, so we’re here, we’re here. And

Anthony Barone:
Happy days.

Chris Simmance:
it’s a nice end of the week as well. So I’m, I’m ready for, for the weekend. I don’t know about you.

Anthony Barone:
100%. Let’s get it going.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, exactly. So, um, first of all, for anyone who doesn’t know you’ve lived under a rock, but anyone who doesn’t know, tell us who you are and what you do, what, what agency you’re running.

Anthony Barone:
Thank you very much, Chris. Well, my name’s Anthony Barone and I am the co-founder and managing director of StudioHawk UK, an SEO agency based in London.

Chris Simmance:
And how long have you been going there? Cause I know that there’s the Australian outfit and you’re running the UK outfit. So how long has the UK version been running?

Anthony Barone:
It’s been running for three and a half years. I moved over here in August of 2019, just before the pandemic. And yes, three and a half

Chris Simmance:
timing.

Anthony Barone:
years of of lessons and experience.

Chris Simmance:
Just setting up an agency in lockdown is no mean feat. And you know, you’ve not done too bad. I’m going to say that. So we’re going to have, I think because the agency’s been, uh, we’ve had Harry, um, uh, founder of studio Hawken runs, um, Australia, uh, version. Um, he’s been on in the past. He’s, I think he’s going to come on season two soon. Um, let’s talk about all, let’s frame all of this from, uh, you agency leader of the UK. Um, because as much as we love Harry, you’ve done the hard graft on this end of the, the, um, the, the hemisphere, should we say, so let’s focus it along those lines. Um, what do you think though, has been one of the biggest successes that you’ve seen since you, since you started doing this?

Anthony Barone:
For me, honestly, personally and professionally, I came to the country with no idea, no clue and got thrown in the deep end. After only 18 months of being in SEO, I moved to the UK and we thought, hey, let’s start the agency. So I really started from below zero, I would say. With Harry’s help and a few early contacts, because we’d done it in Australia, we had a bit of that experience, but me personally, never run a business before. I’ve only managed a couple of people back in Australia. Um, so it was really just being thrown to the deep end and then, um, starting an agency in one of the most competitive, uh, markets, not only for SEO, but for digital marketing, you know, you’ve got a lot more switched on people. Um, you’ve got a lot of brands with a lot of big money who have got really knowledgeable people, not just about SEO, but digital marketing in general. So you’re really up against it. Um, you know, not to, not to denigrate Australia, but UK is that, you know, London is a world-class city with some of the biggest companies, brands and people. So. You know, it’s no easy feat to try and start an agency with some of the best SEOs in the world here in the UK.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah. And so the success is that you’ve actually been able to do it successfully. It’s, it isn’t easy. And I can, I understand where you’re coming from when you say, you know, UK and then London in particular, there’s, I guess that partly because the cost of everything in London is so high, the competition is quite high also. But you guys have done exceedingly well. How many, how many are in the team at the minute?

Anthony Barone:
Yeah, so we’ve got eight in the team in the UK. I would say, yeah. So we’ve got seven, I’d say dedicated SEOs and then myself, who I’ve taken myself sort of out of the reporting and doing the, doing the account stuff because they’re all better than me now at the SEO. So yeah, team of eight dedicated SEO specialists, mate.

Chris Simmance:
That’s awesome. And, and, and I think one of the key things that you guys have done really well was you’ve stuck to your guns, SEO only, and focused on that as a, as a, as a way of kind of niching into something. Cause there’s, there’s a real, um, draw, isn’t there with, if a client comes along and you go, oh, this would be a great client for SEO, but can you do some PPC or can you do a bit of social for me, can you do a bit of web dev? If you stick to your guns, you know, you, you know what you’re doing.

Anthony Barone:
100%, where specialist is one thing, we care about one thing, which is SEO. And I think being a specialist allows, when you’re running the agency, you’re able to focus, you’re training your skillset on just SEO. I don’t have to worry about

Chris Simmance:
Hmm.

Anthony Barone:
40 different other skews. We’ve built a lot of friendships and relationships with people who are also specialists in PPC or social media or web dev, let them handle it. You call a plumber to fix the toilet, you’re not gonna call an electrician. So that’s the way I look at it. And by having that mentality, we’re able to build relationships, build friendships, because there’s enough business to go around. So even to other SEO agencies, if there’s high level stuff, we’ve got plenty of friends like Ross from Taipei, who you’ll handball work to, because there’s enough to go around and people have their niches, people have their specialties. And as an agency, well, as an agency owner, it’s easier to make friends and get along rather than just trying to do it all yourself. Because if you try and keep everyone happy, you make no one happy. And if you try and do it all yourself. You can’t spin that many plates.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, completely agree. And I think you say, you know, you can make friends and things like that. I think it’s in London, I’ve noticed that even though the competition is high, the community is great. And I think that like, you know, it’s not a case of sharing client secrets, but nothing is really a secret in SEO and nothing’s say nothing’s new, but very little is new, so you can have a really good. relationship with other agencies, other SEOs, things like that. So it does, you don’t get so much of that in, in advertising. You certainly don’t get it in digital PR. I’ve noticed as much as SEO. And, and just talking of community, do you want to just really quickly touch on the community that you’re building around the, the events that you’re doing? Cause I think they’re fantastic.

Anthony Barone:
Oh, thank you very much, Chris. So yeah, we’ve got the agency social club, which we’ve built with a friend of mine called Stokely from Trinity granddad. The idea behind that was essentially we’re in shortage. We w it’s a creative heart, you know, um, there’s a lot of hipsters here, but there’s a lot of agencies and we thought why not have a networking event that’s geared towards agencies in our own backyard? Um, and I was a part of too many networking events and too many sort of groups. I’m like, well, let’s just do one in our own backyard. That’s geared towards. agency founders that can have a good night on a Thursday night, which is the night in shortage, um, and get around each other. So we’ve

Chris Simmance:
It

Anthony Barone:
done

Chris Simmance:
is.

Anthony Barone:
a couple so far and, you know, we had Claire from Trime agency, um, do it, do, you know, the marketing agency for marketing agency, speak at our last one. Uh, we’re looking at organizing our next one. We know we’ve had good 60, 70 people at, at, at both of those events. So we’re looking to make that a more consistent thing and just have a bit of fun because sometimes it does get lonely as an agency founder and you just want to build. And sometimes, you know, the networking might be a bit old school, you know, uh, you know, sort of that sort of stuff. When in actual fact, getting along with people and, and, and being able to build relationships is the way to go. Cause there’ll be challenges that people have faced that you’re facing. They’ve got the answer. You just need to ask them. So that’s, that’s the whole goal

Chris Simmance:
Yeah.

Anthony Barone:
behind it.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah. And, and, and, you know, doing that in a IRL fashion really does get people going because, you know, okay. Um, we’re out of all of the lockdowns and things like that, but people still work from home for the most part, especially in this industry, quite a lot of agencies of either fully remote or hybrid and things like that. So getting people face to face is, is a great thing to do. And, and, um, you know, I can speak firsthand to your events there. They’re the, um, You’ve got people there like you, if that makes sense. So it’s easy to just turn around behind you and talk to anyone that stood behind you that you never met before and you can have a conversation. I think, you know, that’s a real success, mate. And, you know, it’s a, it’s a big thing to come in fresh off the boat a few years ago, sit in a tiny house that you don’t know anyone, uh, and build an agency of eight people that’s very well run and. uh, start building a community externally to that. It’s, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s really, really, um, you shouldn’t, you know, take your hat off, um, well, I take my hat off to you at least. Um,

Anthony Barone:
Thank

Chris Simmance:
but

Anthony Barone:
you, man.

Chris Simmance:
saying that though, if you were to go back in time to when you first kicked off Studio Hawk UK, um, and if you could go back in time, that’d be great. Um, so many things I’d do differently. Um, what would you, what advice would you give the, uh, the younger, slightly shorter haired version of yourself?

Anthony Barone:
I don’t know, fade, fade haircut back then. I would probably say, take it more serious. I wish I could take it more seriously. I think because

Chris Simmance:
Mm.

Anthony Barone:
it was just me, I was just floating around, just trying to figure it all out. Didn’t really have too much of a plan. It was more just like, oh, we did it in Australia, so we’ll figure it out. And you know, we’ve got to this point, which has been great, but I think if I’d taken it a bit more seriously, I’d focused a bit more on nurturing more relationships because I knew no one, I had to just spread myself. to as thin as possible to try and meet people, go to BNI, go to networking events, go to SEO events and do it all, which is great for service level conversations and it’s helped us get to a point, but it didn’t allow, because I was doing everything and it didn’t allow me to try and build stronger relationships probably earlier on, which could have led to bigger opportunities and maybe faster growth. So I’d probably say if I went back in time, take it a bit more seriously and focus a bit more.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah. And I can, I can, I can feel that because I think I, I, I remember when I was starting out, it was, I was in the UK and I was in London, the city I already was in. And it was, and I still didn’t necessarily take it all that seriously. I remember thinking, you know, the first few clients that come in, you’re looking at the, the, the cashflow and thinking, this is, this is, that was easy. Just carry on with the same way. It doesn’t work when you get to eight, does it?

Anthony Barone:
Yeah, you need to have a plane. You need to have the structure. And that’s what, that’s what I’ve started to really focus on and just yet. Be a bit more serious, put the, put the, put the adult adult cap on and go, look, do we do it for example, do we want a lifestyle business? Do we actually want to build, you know, something

Chris Simmance:
Hmm.

Anthony Barone:
like for the long term. And for me, I look at studio Hawk as a decades long multi-decade agency. Um, and not for my, for myself personally, and to continue to build that while. in my first year as well. Oh, this is nice to pay the bills in London and we’ll see how it goes, you know, a bit loose. But for me now, it’s like, this is the opportunity for not only myself, but for everyone who comes through a StudioHawk to build a life and a career through StudioHawk and through SEO really. So that’s, yeah,

Chris Simmance:
Yeah.

Anthony Barone:
that’s

Chris Simmance:
And,

Anthony Barone:
what I wanna do.

Chris Simmance:
and, and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve met a fair amount of your team, um, at various different events and things like that. And, and I can, I can say that, you know, you’ve not just built a team of people who do SEO. You’ve got, you’ve got people who, um, uh, really personable, easy to, to talk to. Which, which is, which is a really important thing, especially in SEO when you do, um, on the technical side, at least end up with some, some, uh, nerds and very hard to get them away from their bedroom and their computer screens. But you’ve got a good bunch of people, which is the right way of hiring your team for the longevity that you talk about. If you have people like that, then it attracts more people like that, which then means that it’s not just a busy, hardworking environment, but you’ve got a nice feeling when you’re there.

Anthony Barone:
100% and you know basing off those core values and I think in the early highs we looked at people who were just like Like us what it’s it saw the opportunity of SEO saw that they wanted to learn but saw that they you know We’re getting into the ground floor of the growing company They could really you know have input in and really hang it because you know you’re hanging out with each other eight nine hours A day, you know every day of the week You want to be able to do it with people that you enjoy and be it you know be a place That you that you feel valued and loved otherwise just go work somewhere else So that’s what I try and do here focus on those core values make it fun

Chris Simmance:
Well, don’t think it’s a bit mad to think that in other industries though, people, even now, work five days a week in an office for eight hours a day with people that they really don’t get on with aside from professionally. You know, you do that same kind of thing for 40 years plus. It’s a weird life to

Anthony Barone:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
spend, you know, five-sevenths of your working life with people you don’t like. And so to surround yourself with people that you can have a chat with as well as do some work with is really important.

Anthony Barone:
That’s what I love about it. Like for me, I look

Chris Simmance:
What?

Anthony Barone:
at it and

Chris Simmance:
What?

Anthony Barone:
go, yeah.

Chris Simmance:
What would you say though, out of all the things you’ve achieved up to this date, what would you say that you’ve learned the hard way? What’s one of the lessons you’ve learned? Something you regret and go, God, if I hadn’t done that.

Anthony Barone:
Yeah, I think, um, what tends to happen is in the hiring process, like you might be stressed out with work, like we need to hire, we need to hire. And, you know, if you don’t have a plan or you don’t have a clue, you just be like, Oh, the work’s coming in and just need to do it. What happened one time was I, I was hiring juniors and you know, we’ve got a few clients in, I thought, okay, we need another one to future proof that to sort of get ahead so we can train them up. And by the time that we, and then that’ll allow us to grow more and get more business in and they’ll, they’ll fill up their time. What tended to happen was this was during the time of the great resignation, um, you know, January 22, ran then when everyone, you know, everyone was trying to, um, leave their jobs, get all the money. And it was harder to find talent. And what I did was I was hiring a junior two, two, three days a week. Um, and I honestly didn’t have candidates that I really, really liked. It was the choice of who was less bad. And I made the choice of who was less bad. And. ended up having to let them go after two months. So I think, you know, if you’ve got a choice, when you’re hiring, you’ve gotta be sure on it. Cause if it’s gotta be about who you like the most rather than who is just less bad. And that’s the mistake I made last year. Had to let them go, time wasted training them up, payroll, all that type of stuff that you think, oh no, but it is a valuable lesson I can impart to others.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I think there’s the opportunity cost of the time you train them. And there’s the culture cost with, you know, seeing people come in and leave for the rest of the team. There’s the pain on all sides as well, because that person doesn’t want to feel like they don’t fit in and that person doesn’t want to feel like they’re not suitable and, you know, get let go and things like that, it’s not nice for anyone. And then there’s the actual physical cost as well, you know, potentially work that needed redoing or indeed, you know, client that might not be happy. And then recruiters fees as well. Well, you know, it’s not, there’s a, there’s a few good recruitment firms out there now that aren’t, you know, vultures. Um, but at the same time, you know, every, every week that that person’s in post that they’re not a fit is, is money you can’t claw back from the fees that the recruiter, um, put in place, but there’s, there’s, there’s some good firms now that do an awful lot of pre-work before they send CVs now, which is, which is a lot more, uh, valuable. Um, so on the other side of things though, what’s something that you did on day one? that you’re like, this is the secret sauce, we’re sticking with this.

Anthony Barone:
I have to say is just get comfortable being uncomfortable. I think like I just had to throw myself in there which just

Chris Simmance:
Hmm.

Anthony Barone:
helped me out. And if you take that into a situation, any situation, whether it’s networking, like the one thing that works for me when networking, if you’re shy, you go into a networking event or you go to whatever event, right? People should expect to be approached and you should expect to be approached. So when I had that mentality, I was like, well, you’re here. And if you didn’t wanna be here and you get annoyed cause someone’s talking to you, then why the hell are you here? So I think that was a really good one for me because being able to go into networking events with that mentality, I just, it took down the barriers for me. Like I didn’t have to worry about, Oh, this person, no, they’re here to network. I’m work. Um, they should expect to be approached. I should expect to be approached. And then that broke down the wall so I could just have a chat with anyone. So I think that was, that was good for me, um, to be able to have that realization I’ve taken that into every event now or everywhere I go.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, it’s, um, there’s a, there’s almost like it’s a networking is a bit like dating in a sense, but because there’s a professional aspect to it, no one really gets rejected until you just get ignored later,

Anthony Barone:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
um, you know, you get ghosted instead, um, but I, I used to go to networking events years ago, um, and I think it was the, so I, when I first set up in London, I immediately signed up to the chamber of commerce and thought that’s where I’m going to get all these leads from, I’m going to go to all the networking events and I literally came. out with a stack of cards and I went in with a stack of cards. Once my stack of cards would be gone and I had a replaced stack of cards of someone else’s and the next day I just email all these people and you never hear back. But I’ve done it wrong. I went there to sell to these people like this is what I do. This is all the things and it’s really not that. Especially now anyway and you know having a conversation with someone about what they do and their problems and the things that they’re happening in their lives and that sort of stuff. That’s the conversations that really get networking happening. Cause then you see them at another event the next time. So, oh, how was your son’s birthday and that sort of stuff. And, and you build relationships and relationships are what gets you your, your, your network referral leads and things like that.

Anthony Barone:
100%. Yeah. And that’s, that’s the way to go about it. Um, and on just, just to follow up on that one, the other one I would say apart from that that quote is probably just attention to detail. Um, I think having, for us being able to, being able to have attention to detail in all our work and when our name is stamped on that work, and I’ve done this from day one, when you put a piece of work out there, you have that call, whatever it may be. And somebody seeing that, I want them to feel like this is bloody awesome work. So I’ve always gone into that, even when it was just me. Anytime I did a report or a call or an email, I always made sure everything was correct because that in an intangible industry, like SEO, the only tangible thing a client gets or someone gets is that report on that email, that call. So every time I made it, I made it a mission to make sure that every detail was correct. Everything was up to like high standards so that when they see that StudioHawk report call email or anything from me, um, they get that sense of, okay, this, this is, this is legit and they’ve taken care and they’ve got pride in their work. So that’s one I’ve taken from day one as well. When you know at school I didn’t really care but I don’t know for some reason when you work and when you’ve got something like a job like this it’s just like That would that was one thing I’ve done from day one that just helps me out so much

Chris Simmance:
And we just did a webinar yesterday around getting feedback, obtaining and leveraging feedback in an agency. And, you know, that stamp of I’m happy with this, I’m comfortable with this, this is going out and it’s bloody good work. Have you had feedback from, from clients, not necessarily about the quality of the work in the sense of what you want, but is there anything that’s kind of, other than the knowledge that you’ve done? it in the way that you want. Is there any kind of feedback that you’ve had that’s made you go, I’m doing this right?

Anthony Barone:
Yeah, like for SEO, because people think like, oh, it’s video magic, what the hell is it? So we’ve always tried to keep it simple. So the feedback we tend to get on our comms and our reports is, I can understand this. And you’re talking to like

Chris Simmance:
You

Anthony Barone:
business

Chris Simmance:
know you’ve done

Anthony Barone:
owners

Chris Simmance:
it right,

Anthony Barone:
who

Chris Simmance:
yeah.

Anthony Barone:
are like, yeah, I can understand this, this is all very clear. And honestly, they don’t have questions. If they don’t have questions, you’ve answered everything that they were thinking of. So yeah,

Chris Simmance:
That’s awesome.

Anthony Barone:
that’s the type of feedback. that we tend to get, which is awesome in an industry like SEO.

Chris Simmance:
So for anyone who’s been listening to the episode so far, and they’ve stuck with us, thank you very much, what one piece of advice might you give them if they’re thinking about starting an agency?

Anthony Barone:
Uh, it will be rewarding, but it will be challenging and you will go through things that, uh, you’ve never gone through before because agency is all about people. So you’ll have to figure out things about yourself and about people that you didn’t either know before or want to know, but you’re going to have to realize and you’re going to have to do it. So honestly, it’s going to be hard. There’s going to be annoying client emails. There’s going to be annoying issues that pop up with people that lead that you thought was yours is no longer. And they ghost you. There will be, there will be terrible, there will be annoying times and hard times, but all that does make you struggle to realize, I can do this. So yeah, that’s what I would say is, keep pushing, keep challenging yourself, and keep on doing, because it will be hard, but let’s put it this way. If I can do it, you can do it.

Chris Simmance:
Would you have that same feeling if you didn’t have a plan?

Anthony Barone:
probably, you’d probably be a bit more apprehensive and a bit more, you know, crazy, like crazy about it. But I think

Chris Simmance:
Because

Anthony Barone:
if you didn’t

Chris Simmance:
you

Anthony Barone:
have

Chris Simmance:
know

Anthony Barone:
a plan,

Chris Simmance:
where you’re going,

Anthony Barone:
yeah,

Chris Simmance:
right? You know the purpose.

Anthony Barone:
exactly.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah,

Anthony Barone:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
so that advice holds really strong. So get a purpose, then keep going, push yourself.

Anthony Barone:
Yeah, true, true. And you know, with our purpose is just doing SEO. So, you know, it’s that we have that clear vision yet. You know, if you’ve got an agency that’s doing 40 different things. Plus also running an agency and figuring out how to be a business owner and the finance and ops and all that stuff. Yeah. So, um, we, we do have that, do have that guidance to be able to make

Chris Simmance:
Hmm.

Anthony Barone:
that a bit easier, but, um, yeah, you’re right. It’s if, if you don’t have a plan, even, even if you’ve just, even if you just could find

Chris Simmance:
in which

Anthony Barone:
a loose

Chris Simmance:
is open

Anthony Barone:
one

Chris Simmance:
and one that

Anthony Barone:
and then

Chris Simmance:
is

Anthony Barone:
you can

Chris Simmance:
open.

Anthony Barone:
craft it and

Chris Simmance:
Yeah.

Anthony Barone:
hone it as you continue to learn, great.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, absolutely. Is that it’s the, that, you know, the direction you’re traveling. Um, if you know the direction and traveling, sometimes you’ve got a hill to climb.

Anthony Barone:
100%.

Chris Simmance:
Wonderful. Um, thanks so much for coming on Anthony and in about a year’s time, I really hope you come back for season two, cause I’d love to hear what happened in the, in the, the, the, the year following this conversation.

Anthony Barone:
100% more than happy to come back. Thank you, thanks Chris.

Chris Simmance:
Thanks so much. And in our next episode, we’ll be speaking with another agency leader to hear their story and the lessons they learned along the way. In the meantime, thanks very much for listening and see you soon.