Transcript
Hello, Jerry white.
Gerry White
Hey, Chris, how you?
Chris Simmance
Doing alright. Thank you. Or should I say. Durgol or Durga? How? How would you prefer your? I’ve always wanted to actually how? How is your Twitter handle?
Gerry White
Pronounced. I have no idea. It’s literally one of those things which I’ve had for so long since ever since I was playing around with it back in the days when I was. Doing dodgy stuff with BBC Micro games and I was actually injecting it into the code just to kind of screw with stuff. It’s another Grammy, Gerald, which is my real name. And now that I’m 40, something I’ll happily admit that my real name is Gerald. And I do sound like an old man.
Chris Simmance
You do now, and you certainly do now for everyone listening. And for those who who are joining the webinar now, the live stream Heckle as much as you like, the best Heckle will be put up on the screen and and Jerry will have a a tiny amount of time to give you a rebuttal. But the chances? Are he won’t be quick enough and and it will. Be a terrible rebuttal and you’ll feel. Very sorry for him. Just a quick hello to David Sais Vicky Anton. Hello, Anton. In Bratislava now, Anton, I believe. Hopefully the trip over there was pretty good. And you’re settling in well. Jerry, whereabouts are you at? The minute.
Gerry White
I am living as always in the asylum, which is is not a current asylum, it’s an ex asylum for idiots and imbeciles that I’ve moved into. It’s a great came to fame because the royal family was kind of a lot of cousins from the crown, was kind of locked up here, but it’s basically it’s a gap, which airport, which means that I can travel around the world relatively easily as long as there’s a flight from Gatwick Airport and nobody is on strike.
Chris Simmance
Brilliant. And the fact that it is an ex asylum, idiots and imbeciles really makes me happy because it’s I. Mean it’s a lovely area. But the fact that you’re living there makes it all the better. So that being said, we’re here to talk today. And just have a general kind of conversation, general chat about, you know, your career, your path through the sector, things you love about that, the industry that we’re we’re we’re both kind of bred into in a sense now we’ve just it’s been a it’s been part of our DNA for quite a while you much longer than me because you’re really old. And but I’m. Do you wanna do you wanna give everyone like? A. A rundown. How how did you get into the sector? How? What, what? Where did? You start was it. The BBC micros.
Gerry White
So OK, I built websites when I was at university, back when nobody else was doing it. I was actually building websites using word. Initially that was my first website that I built and nobody actually knows it, but you can actually publish HTML in Word. I didn’t actually now put it on the Internet, but I built a website. I even gave it to somebody on. A CD-ROM, because that is how old I. And then I found out how to actually make proper websites. Then I found out how badly I was doing them, got into designing them, got into coding them, I paid them away for university by building e-commerce websites and it just sort of carried on from there. It turned out I’m not the world’s best coder. I’m not the world’s best designer, but I got into SEO, got into data analytics. I actually worked for the government. For a while before they basically. Well then I got sort of headhunted by Razorfish, which is the famous Avenue a razorfish at the time and became the analytics guy there. But I helped them do a lot of SEO stuff and then got into SEO properly. And then I joined a agency producing a huge amount of content for load companies from Microsoft right through to O2 through to like so many different companies. I’m trying to be. Who they all were. Back up and then Oh yeah.
Chris Simmance
I’ve been everywhere.
Gerry White
I could tell you. A lot more. I’m I’m I’m summarising. Don’t worry and. Then I’ll just call the BBC.
Chris Simmance
Basically 2 minutes dude.
Speaker
Yeah, we see.
Gerry White
For a little bit of time, then after the BBC I joined a. No, I can’t fix your printer and it’s easier to buy a new printer nowadays than it is to fix a printer, which is that most ridiculous part of the world, and also nobody needs a printer anyway. Buy a new printer. Yeah, BC I was doing on site search instead of like off site search. So I was doing that for a little bit of time and working on analytics for the homepage. Great fun actually. Really interesting challenges. And then I went to an agency down in Brighton. Called sight visible. See and then I kind of joined a a really good agency called Propeller Net. Who do some really, really good stuff, especially off page and on page stuff very much break their stuff. Then I joined just Steve for a little bit of time for about four years. Then I joined a agency known as Rise at 7 for about a year and a half. As director of SEO. Then I went client side again where I joined ODA which was a Norwegian supermarket going into Finland. And Germany. And then I joined Riverside, which is a podcasting company.
Chris Simmance
And too, too many different things to remember. I mean the the agency stuff, the most recent agency stuff was with with rise, as you know, you just mentioned saw Carrie and will last week. They’re in good spirits and they said hello the.
Speaker
The the the trip.
Chris Simmance
Over to to Norway with odour was an interesting in-house experience I. Think cause you you. You one of the folks there was to. Sort of open new markets for them. Which I think like that’s pretty cool from an SEO point of. View isn’t it?
Gerry White
It is, unfortunately, it hasn’t gone quite as well. We kind of faced the credit crunch and that was basically the problem that was almost you pay for hardware and vans to deliver the shopping. Or do you pay people to sell orders you can’t complete on? So that’s kind of the reason I left there, but honestly. They were incredible. People, incredible agencies and learned so much about. Kind of the logistics of supermarkets and what people actually search for, which is very different to what we expect. My favourite example, the cucumber, our top selling product. Nobody ever searches for a cucumber buy as a cucumber you know. So it’s one of those things where I kind of learned a lot about how customer journeys work and how attribution works and this cause it’s just a great kind of team to work with.
Chris Simmance
And and and your current position in Riverside like this isn’t a paid for promotional thing at all, but I love Riverside right now it it, it is made there and we have an Office dog podcast so much more enjoyable to record because I know that the like the editing and all the other stuff isn’t going to be a pain. Neck. And what’s it like working working at Riverside? What’s there? What’s the kind of the the vibe over there? What’s what’s new? What’s what’s the next plan?
Gerry White
Well, the great thing is they’re. Constantly working on new stuff and I’m not. Allowed to talk about any of. It of course. But basically, you know the the products and technology that’s coming out, it’s it’s really, really fun. What I mean by that is you know, you kind of look looking at teams that are able to kind of go, we need to do this. So we’re going to do it and they get it out. They listen to the customers. A friend of mine called Kendall, who is kind of leading the community side of it. She’s constantly reporting back. On what people are talking about and the the industry and kind of saying, Yep, actually there’s really cool things to do and we’re we’re always looking at kind of new opportunities and new things to do. And from my side of it, you know, working on how do we kind of expand that out? How do we kind of tell? People what we’re. Doing cause people don’t search for new features. It’s it’s like if we’ve got this cool new feature. How do we tell everybody about it who aren’t necessarily searching? For that thing. So you know. It’s working with kind of demand generation. It’s working with all of these different ways to kind of manipulate like the audiences to kind of know about us without.
Chris Simmance
Interesting. Interesting choice of words there.
Gerry White
I know I was thinking as I. Said that, that was not the word I was. Looking for bad choice of. Words, but it was kind of like it. Intercepting journeys. Let’s go talk about, you know, it’s kind of saying, you know, during a journey, if you’re looking for this, we can actually say we can actually help you with that. You know, it’s everything from marketing to production to editing you. Know take a look at us.
Chris Simmance
And and what I find. Really interesting about your career is you’ve, like you, we’ve said, you know, you’ve been in-house, you’ve been agency, you’ve been client side, you’ve been products, you’ve been services like you’ve done, you’ve done quite a lot. So it must really kind of help, it must really help when it comes to like new roles and things because of the level of transferable. Skills and experience. You’ve had across the board. But as you know, the GOOG Centre focuses on building and growing agencies, and so I’m going to focus this next question on on that, if that’s. OK. So based on everything that you’ve done in agencies and the work that you’ve done with them, whether it be as a buyer in house or or or otherwise. And what kind? Of advice, would you would you give to agencies, agency owners or who would have been previous bosses, I presume, or or even senior leadership in agencies as well? Now what what? What’s something that you.
Gerry White
Kind of love for them to know. I think one of the things that a lot of agencies don’t get right and the agency that I think does get it right are the ones that kind of say that our staff are the heroes or almost, you know, you make the staff the heroes, I. Mean the one agency that I know you’re kind of friends with that are doing this really well is is. Studio hawk. You know, they they basically really make their employees the heroes, you know, every time I see their their team out and about it’s, you know, speaking at conferences. It’s representing them and they’re so passionate about the brand. I think that’s the one thing that I I sometimes think that agencies forget it’s built on the. People. And if the people are brought in and they’re trusted and they’re loved and they feel respected, you know that brand is absolutely critical to it.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, it is. And and in in the agency world, it’s people, business people delivering people for people, delivering for people. Sorry by people and and and the. I think oftentimes though, in order to sell a kind. Of a repeatable serve. This the the need for systems and processes often let push out of the way that kind of need to champion your people and and and and. And there must. Must have been times because I I. Know that you where. You’re where you’ve always been quite. At the forefront of the industry. There’s must have been. Time that you’ve seen the process. Laid out and thought. Checkbox and then it’s it’s. Quite tough, right?
Gerry White
Yeah, I mean. Going back to my time at rise, I usually got involved with the fun clients. Not because I chose it, but because they were the ones that turned around to us and went. This is the problem. And I’m kind of going brilliant. This sounds like a challenge. And you know, I would work with my team. I’d work with everybody and one thing I would say going back to what you said is that a lot of the, I mean, I’m not giving away. Curry secret sauce here, but a lot of the clients that we got were people that we’ve worked with and then the. The the the person like the the I don’t know the marketing manager or marketing director change business and then they kind of called us up and said hey actually can you come and do the same thing for us here and so on and so forth. So it was. Very much around the people wanting to kind of work with the same people again so. I’m really, really happy about that.
Chris Simmance
And just as an interruption here, Jeff, thank you for interrupting Jerry’s workflow. Here, but Steven and Luna, the dogs are actually on the walk at the minute because at this exact time, every Thursday, whenever I’m doing a webinar, the bin men come by and the dogs often like to, well, it’s a bit. It’s a bit like the the the old trope that dogs chase the bin lorry. Down the street, they really don’t like it. Whatever it is. So they may well come and join us later and we’ll see. And if you’re where? Where you’re in house now, if you if if you ever went back like into agency in the future, you know you’ve you’ve got at least two more years before you’re old enough to retire. So. If you if you went back into agency land, what kind of role would be like suit? Really cool. Really ideal for you? Or does it exist?
Gerry White
Yet it’s in the kind of the product development side of it. I’m I’m I’m not gonna mention their name. But so I’m going on a stag weekend with a friend of mine at an agency called Salt, and one of the things that they do is they kind of really. They do. They look at like what? The product, the market needs, what is actually going on and they sort of turn around and and kind of go actually we can either build this or we can facilitate it. So it’s not necessarily like a agency role, which is, you know, I’m gonna carry on doing business as usual. It’s like how can we fulfil a need that’s maybe not fulfilled already and so many businesses. Out there are kind of going actually if we specialise a bit, even if it’s on a platform, a CMS, a tool or something. You know, it gives you kind of a competitive edge and yeah, like I say, salt kind of working on the the local business problem. So yeah, I think it is kind of critical that you look at what the, what problems need to be solved. So yeah. So it turns out the dogs are actually watching.
Chris Simmance
It’s a legitimate walk that they’re on. And so just to shout out to salt because you mentioned the people bit and they do really champion their people in that in that agency. And I don’t know how far along they are until it’s kind of like properly, properly launched, but they’re listing review management platform that they’re putting live that’s that’s come out of a conversation. The in the business that, that that was a a problem to solve and they built a product around it and and and it’s exceptional how you know they’ve now empowered the team to kind of run it and own it. And that’s not just only new revenue stream for the agency, but it’s also kind of proving that you live that that, that, that. Cultural thing that you set out to be.
Gerry White
Yeah. I mean one of the one of the co-owners is an incredible developer who works and employs incredible developers. I’m I mean, I speak to him quite regularly and you know, he’s such a kind of geeky nerd where he sees a problem, sees a solution, but also kind of thinks that whether it’s a commercial problem as well. So yeah, so we’re doing really well on that.
Chris Simmance
What? What do you would you would? You go back agency side.
Gerry White
Yeah, but I would have to be for the right clients. I know that sounds crazy, but basically, you know the worst thing about agencies sometimes from a sort of senior point of view is 100 clients and and everybody trying to kind of spin plates all the time. I’d like to kind of do that, but this or the agency life where I’m actually working with one or two great clients and and really helping them do something. That’s usually a challenge. I mean, I’m also quite happy to be spread around to kind of solve those weird problems again, talking about when I was at rise at 7:00. You know, a lot of the time it was like we’ve got a problem over here. Let’s have a look at the problem. Let’s have a look at solution. Yeah, this isn’t the solution, but we’ll find one. You know everything from the classic, hacking it on with Google Tag manager right through to. Actually the CMS needs it cannot be fixed in this way. Maybe we can do it kind of some edge or something like there’s always a solution. Them, but whether or not the client can afford it, pay for it. Implement. It is kind of a problem.
Chris Simmance
And and and I think that you your sort of wealth of experience. And the the. The the different platforms you’ve worked on that have grown over the years and changed over the years as well that that’s really like important to have and I and and I don’t know whether you what your thoughts are on this, but there’s there’s two big kind of ****** in the agency. Summer, which I can see coming in the next few years and I think the 1st. There’s a lot of the UM, the people who are and were juniors in and around COVID and up to now where remote is more frequent than than than hybrid, which is then less frequent than than fully in the office. There’s an awful lot of junior staff. You are missing out on that kind of learning by osmosis by from people like yourself in the agency or in the in the in the office. Even if it’s hybrid, there’s there’s a there’s a missing opportunity there. And as they grow in their career, there’ll be a bit of a bottleneck. And I’m, I’m I worry. For for agencies in that perspective, well and the people, of course, the other part, I think that’s there’s a real risk right now. And and I don’t wanna go into an AI rabbit hole ChatGPT bar and all the other stuff I’ve fallen off the radar and I realised that there was a what’s it sigge or whatever it is in Google. The other day. But I worry that when at all, a platform can just tell you what the problem is and tell you how to solve it. You’re gonna if you don’t learn the concept. And it it’s.
Speaker
There there’s, there’s.
Chris Simmance
Gonna be a bottleneck of of, of, of people who would be the builders of the strategy, the empathy thinkers, the ones that actually understand how this stuff’s happening. You know, all of this stuff because you’ve done it. All and you’ve. You’ve built things. You’ve broken things, but if there.
Gerry White
Were people. If there’s, if there’s.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, if there’s. People that are, you know, in in their the junior part of their career, how are. They gonna get to learn these things, do you think?
Gerry White
Yeah. I mean, going back studio Hook, one of my favourite X risers is Sophie and one of the things that she did was she bought a website selling Penguin related things, which sounds insane and she is completely insane, but she’s still going.
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Gerry White
But you know the amount of like, knowledge and experience that she took from that to kind of take to the clients, not just about. You know the the HTML and other bits and pieces, but the commercial side of it, understanding the fact that you know what happens when an order comes through and how do we kind of look at these sort of customer journeys. You know, she she. Helped me kind of write blog posts on on on the fact she wrote the blog post on things like data studio Analysis and other bits and pieces and actually understanding how the data comes in and how it goes out and what is working. I mean, one of the kind of big problems almost is when I talk to people about things like Google Analytics is they don’t fully understand that it’s captured. Using JavaScript and this JavaScript has to be fired at a certain point and it’s all blocked if cookies aren’t there and and you know all of these kind of problems where we go. We started to kind of see more and more problems and more and more solutions, but what I would say is about the young people, it sounds kind of like a. Really old man statement. Of the day. But I am yeah, I am really impressed by sort of some of the output that I’m seeing from young people.
Speaker
Those young.
Gerry White
I’m not gonna mention any names, but there are people who I kind of are blown away with, like the. The AI and and when I say I’m not just talking about, we did attract GPT script or something. I’m talking about the people that have kind of taking machine learning to at the next level and going. Yeah, we produced this dashboard to kind of penalise this at scale and do similar bits and pieces. The great thing about it is the fact that I’ve got kind of the experience to learn about the application. And but they’ve got kind of this young knowledge to kind of take it, learn it. And you know, I’ve always said I’m a I’m a lifetime student, but I’m struggling to kind of keep up with some of the technology and changes that are happening. And so working with people who are on top of it means that I can really kind of push everything going forward.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, I I I I’m. I’m excited to see what’s gonna happen, but I obviously nervous for the for for some of the juniors that would normally learn through the drudgery of of like the the smaller tasks. But that being. Said being able to do more things means you probably have the ability to think a little bit more clearly and learn how to do stuff. You know, learning how to do something at scale is, is is a great idea and you know, Python was around when when I first started in SEO a good a good while ago, but there wasn’t the opportunity to do huge amounts of things. With it, if that makes sense because you didn’t have the the the platforms that would have given you any of that information, yeah. And so. So I yeah, it would be an interesting, interesting few years ahead. I’d love to be able to Fast forward and see what happens, but we. Have to wait, I’m afraid. And if you are listening AI overlords when you are passing all of this information, Jerry and I are good guys. And just remember that and take the others. I’d say Jeff will probably be on your list. Leave his sheep though. Make sure sheep got plenty of food, so if there’s anyone kind of looking to get in the industry. You know there. There’s there’s, there’s. A lot of people who kind of. Into the industry, who a bit like you, but like me that you tinker around with a few things and then one thing leads to another and the next thing. You know you’re you’re. In the industry, how, where would you start nowadays do you think?
Gerry White
Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. The good thing is there’s a lady has done a kind of this learning SEO thing and this is not just a website, this is a, this is a list of resources to kind of go through and and discover everything on anything. I I’m so impressed and blown away by what she’s kind of produced that, you know, I think we need a link in the chat. Course. So you know, if you don’t already follow a later and you’re not already kind of subscribe to a newsletter, this is kind of a great place to start. Beyond that, I think you’ve got to kind of go almost agency style at the side at one point in your career. The reason I say going agency side is I learn so much by. Kind of working on 20 clients and working with 20 different people and working with all those different. Expertise. And you know, again going back to agency, you know that you often find that there’s somebody in the corner who knows about analytics. There’s somebody who knows about data analysis there. Somebody who knows about all of those different parts. And yeah, when I worked at Rice, for instance, there was a guy who I learned a huge amount from portieri. I’m not even gonna. Try and pronounce his second name. But Terry, I learned a crazy amount from there was a lot of people that that I learned a lot from a different place. Richard Lawrence who? He’s one of the smartest guys I’ve ever kind of worked with on data analysis and yeah, basically a lot of people that I’ve worked with over my career have taught me a different way to crack a nut from them.
Chris Simmance
I yeah, I I totally agree. Like having having been in a few different roles myself I can I can. I totally, totally agree with that that in my first agency, like the first time I’d ever even come across the the, the, the name Google Analytics and obviously it’s about to go through a a potentially bad iteration. That I’m pretty sure I annoyed Anna Lewis every single day when I spoke to her because. There was stuff I just didn’t understand. I didn’t understand how it was, how it was working and things like that, and that was because I was focusing on another area, but I still wanted to understand how it worked. I’ve not gone down the data and the analytics path in my career, but I still wanted to learn where the number that I was working towards came from and how it all fitted together. And I think if you’re working. In an agency, you. You. Learn a lot of small bits whilst. Sticking in your in your. Lane as well, which is great.
Gerry White
I do think it’s important to get out, though. The worst problem with an agency sometimes is that they all they all kind of have the same solution. You know, one person has a solution, everyone does the same kind of method. And I love things like measure camp, which is the nerdiest thing to do on a Saturday. Basically, you go and spend the day with lots of other analytics people, and from there basically you you consume knowledge. A lot of the time things you kind of go. I have no idea what they’re talking about. You hear it twice and suddenly. Ohh OK, so that applies to. This and then you hear it three or four times and you go OK. I’m gonna go do. I love Google Data Studio which is now called Luca Studio because Google has this policy that if somebody remembers a name of something, they’re gonna change it or they’re gonna sunset it. But I’m gonna rant about Google but. What was I talking? About Oh yeah, data studio. Look a studio, sorry. Look a studio. Basically, there’s some really, really cool features within it to bring in APIs. From all sorts of. Pieces and I remember listening to a guy talking about that at a conference, and I went, oh, I had no idea you could do all that. I thought it was really basic and not very good, but it turns into this incredible kind of front end to all your data sources. So I think there’s loads and loads. Of ways in which we can. Constantly learn, you know, going to places like Mexican up or or conferences around the world is is definitely a good idea.
Chris Simmance
I totally agree. I totally agree. And they’ve got. A question just come up on put up here from Simon.
Speaker
Chris Simmance
Hello Simon. By the way, haven’t seen you for a little while. And what was it, right? And last, how do you how do you continuously? Keep on learning while doing your job and having a beer once in a while.
Gerry White
It is a challenge. I say that because you know, sometimes you’re so busy spinning plates that you don’t find out there’s a special plate spinning machine out there that will do it for you. That’s a bad analogy. But you know what I mean is it’s sometimes actually learning a smart way of doing things. Is is the biggest challenge around. But as I sort of have met. I’m at measure many, many measure camps, you know, and every time I talk to Simon, I learned something really new and different. Simon is the guy who can hack your analytics account and produce weird numbers out of it. Going to do some crazy stuff with it. And you know, there’s there’s so many other places and you know, the other time that I met Simon was at a conference called Take it offline, which is. This amazing conference that.
Chris Simmance
Literally I was. I saw you this message come. In just there, I was about to give that. Massive plug because not only are you tightening the industry and you know so much. About everything you are. And support you, you support so many people in the sector and and and there’s a laundry list of people who who you’ve helped in their career, whether it be just introductions to the right people at the right time or whether it be. Actually teaching them something or helping them through something. And but you also somehow find the time in between learning in between doing in between doing your own job and having a beer to run. With a few others, obviously, and absolutely fantastic conference, take it offline. Tell us first of all, tell us how it all started and now and then tell us all about what’s coming up because.
Gerry White
The roots are completely different to what. It is today. There was a guy called Tom. And bearing in mind if you ever run a conference, Tom and Jerry running a conference does not. Sound like a good idea? Tom basically said Ohh I wanna do it like this little round table for local businesses. So as he was a freelancer trying to get more business to come in. So we went down to a little place called Brighton and invited local businesses along. None of them turned up, but. People like Johno and Hannah and other really smart people turned up instead, so we had really smart conversations instead of really basic conversations. And we kept having smart conversations and these smart conversations evolved. Then, of course, there was the incident where I think it was Peter Mead came over from Australia and I think that might be the first time I met you and Vicky. Nick said, hey, can you like organise a little meet up? I was like, yeah, sure. You know, what’s the worst that could happen? So I put the word out and 150 people signed up. This was kind of gonna be hosted at my work at Dusty. And I was told I had a maximum allowed capacity of 50 and I was like, oh, don’t worry about it. You know, 50% of people never turn up and we got. 110% turn out and we didn’t quite have enough pizza for everybody or beer and.
Chris Simmance
I remember that.
Gerry White
What we went to the pub afterwards, it was fine. I I was fairly drunk afterwards. I don’t know quite how, but one of the things that we did was kind of this honest panel where we basically said on the panel. Instead of everybody agreeing with each other and and having a bit of a process where we all say the same things, we should basically be as honest as possible. And if you get Judith being too honest on a panel after a large drink, it’s dangerous. So. Yeah. Yeah, good things happen.
Chris Simmance
I mean, all love to Judith Lewis and another another industry legend, but also someone who you definitely want on the panel when they’ve had a few drinks.
Gerry White
Because of the lols? Yep, along with Ross.
Chris Simmance
Yes, I I think when you can. Have UM, if you like, you say if you can have a conversation that isn’t, that isn’t all agreeing. Not just because you want to disagree with each other, but because there are differences of differences of opinion and most of SEO is difference of opinion and application in most cases. So it’s always a lot of fun but tell tell us that all now right now. About the next take it offline event. In Sofia and it’s.
Gerry White
Bulgaria, yeah.
Chris Simmance
What month? I can’t remember anything.
Gerry White
November, November the 10th. Basically this is Arnie’s fault, he said. Let’s do one in Amsterdam and I said, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. What could possibly go wrong? And then I could tell you what went wrong and it was our nose fault, but we all basically went over to Amsterdam when we had a great time and we were like, yeah, let’s do it again next year. And then that was 2020, so that didn’t work out particularly well. And now we’re going to actually do a proper one in Bulgaria. So yeah, have a look on the website which will be actually, it’s not on the website yet, but have a look on the Twitter account which is offline. Take because take it offline is is. Not available but. Basically have a look. On a well.
Chris Simmance
Offline take is a one word.
Gerry White
Yeah, it’s the worst way to handle ever. But we can’t get the right one yet. I’m hoping Elon Musk will kind of sort it all out for me. You know, I’ve got faith in the man.
Chris Simmance
I mean, you’ve got plenty of followers. Maybe, maybe, maybe you will.
Gerry White
Yeah. Things in my life I need to fix that is definitely on the list. But basically, yeah. So we’re going to go to Bulgaria. Tickets are cheap and there’s an there’s a 50% off code which is take it everywhere or lower case. And if you come along, then I don’t know what’s going to happen because we’re still in the planning phases. But if there’s going to be anything like.
Speaker
It’ll be fun.
Chris Simmance
I mean, Amsterdam was absolutely brilliant fun. I remember the panel in particular was a lot of fun because it was, you know, later on in the day and a lot of a lot of laughs were had. But one of the things that I think Arnold brought to it quite well was the the unconference aspect where there were a. Few different rooms and a few people. Kind of ran like mini talks and things like that at the time, which was absolutely it made. It made it a lot more fun because you had not just the normal speakers on the stage. You also had the, the, the. The like the sides.
Gerry White
Yeah, that’s that’s definitely one of the things that we try to kind of make sure is the the heroes of the day aren’t the the kind of the name speakers, the heroes of the day are people like you guys who are kind of organising or having conversations. I mean, this was the first time that I’d seen Rishi in many, many, many years.
Chris Simmance
Steven, is there everyone. Steven here. You can keep your. Keep your your ticket fees now. Hey, so he’s joining up in the in. Yeah, so it it I think so. Vicky did one Rishi did a really good. One as well actually didn’t. There’s plenty of, I think there’s. Gonna be good, good. Few people wanting to to do those. Next time round as well.
Gerry White
Yeah, absolutely. And it means basically the two things you can do. One, you can discuss a problem that you have rather than necessarily a problem you’ve already solved. So you might kind of turn around and say actually what we want to do is learn about AI or data analysis or something in that way or data studio or something. And this is the weirdest conversation. And basically Steven. Yeah, I mean, this is an idea stolen from measure camp, completely stolen from it.
Chris Simmance
I’m struggling with.
Gerry White
You know, there’s no there’s no shame about it. We’ve we’ve stolen it completely and used it for a different thing, and yeah, basically, if it works, it worked really, really well. And in Amsterdam it worked and. The best thing that we try to do. Is not necessarily. It’s not about a panel and an audience. It’s about chemistry and engagement. And if if you go away having connections and friends, I mean, I’ve heard of people getting jobs that take it offline. I’ve heard of. People developing companies, brands, friends, loads of things. So you know, if you come along with great connections, great friends, I think that’s a win. Definitely worth the ticket price.
Chris Simmance
Absolutely. We booked and I think Vicky has already booked the flights and the hotels and everything. We’re we’re all sorted and she’s an organisational machine. So you’ve spoken speaking events, you’ve spoken at lots, you’ve provided a huge amount of content and value to the industry through lots of events. You’ve spoken at some some big that’s too heavy. Speaking at a a good few, like large scale conferences. You’ve spoken at grassroots stuff. What? What about that? Do you enjoy the most? What is? It that that you? Really, you know, really get some. Value out of.
Gerry White
So with those connections you know if if somebody turns around to you afterwards and has a chat with you about something, often I mean the last one I went to was in a place called. What country is Copenhagen in Denmark? Yeah, weirdly enough, going back to Denmark next week, so I should remember. Basically the the I I kind of had a great conversation with Tom Capper and a guy called Danny. Who is this a I.
Speaker
They’re not.
Gerry White
Specialist and he taught me so much about cause AI is such a buzzword at the moment and everybody says ChatGPT will solve all the problems. This guy came along. And said this are the problems that will solve and these are the problems that. All screw up or give you more problems. And so learning from somebody like that and having a conversation with the bar afterwards, I mean, I DM D him because I was trying out one of his trips and he kind of came back and said ohh yeah, no, you just have to do this or this is the solution for this. Ohh, this happens if you do that. So yeah, it’s it’s it’s kind of those connections and I’ve got so many connections now with people who I I speak to very regularly when I think to myself, I’m struggling. I don’t know how to fix this. Or am I approaching this problem wrong? Is is the issue that I’ve got at work like this, or who do you recommend for this particular problem because I? I as an SEO guy can’t solve the world’s problems, but if I know a guy on maybe page speed like John or you or I know somebody on. Analytics like Stacy or you know, there’s so many people who I kind of go, OK, that’s the person for this. And I I’ve met them nine times. I’ve turned through conferences.
Chris Simmance
Yeah. No, I I, I I I. Completely agree with you there. I mean, don’t ever come to me for page speed stuff anymore, cause that was a little while ago and I’ve probably forgotten most of it. No, I wasn’t even anywhere near as good as Johno. At any point of that, anyway.
Gerry White
It was an example.
Chris Simmance
I used to go to Johno for for for sense cheques before I went on the stage just in case I said something stupid, but I I get what you mean and and one of the things that one of the things I think that almost everyone who’s. Watching this now and. In the the replays later. We’ll agree with is that that you get what you put into this industry and it and a bit like Google’s Google index. It remembers and the the industry knows what you know, what you put in and the value you bring and the people that that you’ve helped and things like that. And I think that that, you know. You’ve you’ve helped an awful lot of people learn and grow and get something out of this sector. That maybe they’ll have got it eventually because you know, they’re smart people, but you know, giving away a lot of time. It takes a long time to put a presentation together and get it ready. Takes a lot of time to travel to events speaking events. It’s not all. Glitz and glamour, as, as I’m sure a lot of a lot of our. Hello speakers will will will attest.
Gerry White
- I agree with that. Yeah, I mean, I I love kind of going to events and I love speaking to people, but I’m 6 foot four and when they put me on an EasyJet flight, there is a very good chance that my knees will be in the. Back of the. Person in front of me so. It isn’t. It isn’t the most pleasurable way to spend 2 hours often, but at the end of the day, especially if easy jets stuck on the runway for another hour and a. Half or something? But yeah, short version it’s not. All the the best thing ever, but he clearly, you know I’ve got. Everybody shares back again. It’s not me. It’s it’s everybody. The industry is a weirdly lovely place that shares so much and you know, even if they’re not sharing it publicly, they’re often sharing it really privately. Yeah, there’s a WhatsApp group that I’m in about data studio and the amount of times where I’ve looked at it and thought that’s just amazing. What somebody has kind of shared in there. I can think of so many examples, but you know it’s it’s it’s I am kind of a constantly a student and you just hear a little. Bit people share back again. So I’m not this selfless kind of person completely. I just like the fact that people share back with me. Because I share with them.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, and and and. Again, you know it’s not selfless in entirely, but I mean very little things are are selfless. But I think that there’s a lot of value that that you’ve added to the sector that that most people would have. Would not have gone as far in a in a nice. Way I. Think you’ve you know you’ve put a lot of time in and to deliver a full day of training. For example, isn’t just a full day of your time and and, you know often times not getting paid for those sorts of things. It’s. It it’s a, it’s a. It’s a really good thing that you’re doing in this industry and and and one of those things that you put a lot of time into and I. Know you’ve done quite. A lot of a lot of these is you. You judge quite a. Lot of industry awards and and I I think. The was it the European search wars that was just. Yeah, just last year.
Gerry White
In Portugal.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, you’re a serial. Judge is what I’m painting as your you. You are judgmental in general. Well, I’ve been at the brunt of quite a lot.
Gerry White
Is it my age?
Chris Simmance
Of your. Since in the past.
Gerry White
And you have been more mental than me for the past 20 years.
Chris Simmance
I mean, I’m making up for it. I was just really nice for a really long time and I need. To catch up now and. What for? Anyone who? Who’s listening, who works in? An agency or works. In house that would normally be the kind of people that would want to enter into awards. What would you say would kind of would definitely make an award more winning? Likely. Or perhaps the other way around, way less likely to to win. What’s a red flag?
Gerry White
No, no. So with the positives, basically it’s somebody that’s a little bit different, somebody that kind of. As you know, I. I actually spoke about this at the European Search awards last week basically, and my example was be more Mark Rolfe, which sounds like a terrible idea if you know who I’m talking about. Mark Rolfe is the guy that created a billboard to try and you know, because Tinder and Bumble wasn’t working for him. I mean, that’s his line. That, you know, he basically did it because he just likes to experiment. He’s also the guy that created a chat. Bot or A or a bot basically that replied to everybody on Twitter that asked for a referral code for Uber and he got thousands of pounds worth of. Uber credit. My point is that Mark Rowe, an insane gentleman, absolutely lovely, but to completely insane and you know he’s doing a PR course at the moment.
Speaker
I’m familiar.
Gerry White
He thinks different. He does things differently and I think one of the biggest problems with a lot of the entrance that. We see is the fact that it’s. It doesn’t stand out anywhere near as much as if they did something a little bit different. If they kind of looked. At the problem went. Ohh, we’ve got a great solution over here and you know it’s not just be a, it’s not. Just business as. Usual described, but equally we also like it when. People just do a really, really good job. And you know, you don’t just fix the Twitter account. There’s a really loud motorbike just outside.
Chris Simmance
‘S really pleased that you let them know everyone. There’s a really loud motorbike outside Jerry’s house.
Gerry White
I think there’s two. Anyway, I’m just making sure that.
Chris Simmance
Gerry White
You can’t hear them. Back to the point. Be more macro, which sounds like a crazy kind of thing to do because he’s a very interesting guy. Basically do a bit different I think about problem, don’t just fix the robots TXT file. That’s not. That’s not quite what we’re looking for. We’re looking for something where you kind of go. We did this and we did that, you know, optimization work is always good. So you can kind of list it in the work that you did. I mean, I’ve seen a few entrants where people have kind of done some analysis. And I went, oh, that was quite smart. They really kind of looked at the problem and then maybe opened up something or did something and did something. Quite intelligent. The other side of it is buzzword bingo. If you said that you use ChatGPT to. Do a problem. That’s not enough, that’s just ohh. Or AI. Every time I see somebody saying we proprietary AI tool, that’s just me going. No, I need to know what you actually did, because for all I know, you. I don’t know proprietary AI tool is just a bit of a bingo word and I don’t think that that’s necessarily going to help us kind of judge your entry.
Chris Simmance
Yeah. And I remember from from my time doing some uh awards judging that the we have a proprietary tour was also code for we’ve got a spreadsheet with some formulas and which is fine. Just say that we’ve got a really very complicated spreadsheet that keeps breaking, but it produces these things.
Speaker
And how?
Chris Simmance
Which has served to solve this problem. But yeah, is there is there anything that that over the years of judging that you’ve seen that’s kind of like as a trend building up in, in, in entries?
Gerry White
That basically you know it’s it’s. The proprietary tool kind of thing. But the the. Really cool stuff is when they, like I said, it’s basically the microwave. Thing where you kind of make us think. And when I talk about AI as being a bad thing, almost when I say it like that, but I’ve seen people say actually we used AI to kind of analyse the data and realise that this sector had a much higher a. Be and therefore we they parted our bidding because we understood that families were the target audience for pizzas that spend more money and a similar bits and pieces. I’m using kind of examples from some of the paid entries in the SEO side of it. It’s, you know, we did something that actually got people to want to link to us and do some really, really cool stuff. I think basically. If you show that what you did was really above and beyond, then it’s kind of exciting both in the content, the technical everything and you know, really be proud of what you’ve done. Don’t. You know, it’s basically showing pride of in your work.
Chris Simmance
Yeah. And so don’t give the award entry to the office admin to fill in the form basically. If you if you really. Have pride in it. Take. The time and and and and and you.
Gerry White
Ohh and make sure you fill out all the boxes. I know it sounds basic, but it’s surprising how many times every box is worth 10 points and one of the boxes somebody will put in a line which says, yeah, yeah we we can’t really share this and suddenly you’ve got zero points for that and there’s no way you’re going to get as many points as if somebody who’s comprehensively filled up every part of it and actually read the question, what does it say? You know, is it objectives of budget, in which case putting the objective and the budget.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, agreed. And and and one one thing which really irked me and I’m sure because you’ve done an awful lot more of this is we increased the clients something by 1000%.
Gerry White
But they’re saying what?
Chris Simmance
The starting or the finishing point was. Immediately is a red flag. Might well have been a bit too harsh in my in my opinions when these. Things happen though.
Gerry White
I mean my favourite one was AV when the the price of the product went up. It’s like, yeah, we improved. We increased the AV and I’m thinking. Of us off but but. There’s you’ve got a single product, the AF. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker
Never knows about.
Chris Simmance
You went up by the same rate. Of inflation as inflation. Jerry, where do you think the the industry will be in the next five years as the final kind of wrap up question?
Gerry White
Yeah, this is a terrible question for me because I have no idea. Every time I think I know where things are going, I’m surprised this this is the first year where I’ve been blown away by just the rate of change and every time I have a conversation with people I’m, you know, you mentioned SG you mentioned other bits and pieces. I have absolutely no idea. Sorry. Judith, what did I say? Ohh no. Yeah, basically. I have no idea what’s going on. Almost. You know AI and ChatGPT at the moment is evolving so fast and you know you and I both love our VR stuff. I love basically playing around with meta quests and bits and pieces and and apples just come out with this insane ski goggles which has, you know, kind of a totally different. User experience than than what we’re. Thing and and I’ve got a pair of those as well, which is basically VR sunglasses AR sunglasses. I mean I think I’m cool wearing them, but.
Chris Simmance
I look really cool wearing them and Mum agrees, but they’re great. Like if you’re working with a laptop, anyone who travels a lot, these are great for work like you can have a have multiple desktops at like 8080 inch size. Screens are brilliant. Buy some.
Gerry White
Real on they’re.
Chris Simmance
Called and they also work really well with a. A steam deck and. I I know that there’s a lot of like at the end of every year, there’s a year in review and digital. Then there’s a what’s the predictions for the future? Yeah, and I I I think almost all of them are generally the same because most of them generally come from the same kind of everyone gets the same news and same information. But. I think it’s probably too in too difficult to call what’s gonna be the case in the next few years. It’s really like well.
Gerry White
I one thing I would say is I think there’s two types of digital marketers that the people that are doing the same thing everyday. And then there’s the the growth. People who kind of are growing almost in themselves, you know, the people who are studying what’s happening and you know, they’re not necessarily ahead of the curve, but they’re certainly not behind it. They’re the people who kind of look at the problem and go actually, I’ve got a great idea or actually, you know, here’s what we can do with it. So short version is that I think if you’re kind of like that. Lifetime student. If you’re that person who looks at the problem and goes ohh, that’s interesting and you know to Simon’s comment earlier on how do. You keep up with Ibrahim, you. Just have to specialise a bit. You have to kind of go along and chat to people you have to listen, but it is. It is me trying to understand what the hell is happening in the SEO world. Sorry, in the AI SEO world there is so much information that overlaps and doesn’t say anything at the moment it’s it’s how do you kind of keep up to up to date with it or so short version. Be a lifetime student and be a kind. Of you know. Growth mindset, sorry, growth mindset is a. Bit of a BS bingo kind of word, but still I could believe.
Chris Simmance
Yeah. I I’m. I’m with you all the. Way and thank you. So much for coming on Jerry with one of the first OMG industry legends webinars and some good, good conversation in the. Chat as well. If you missed Stephen making an appearance, skip back a few minutes, but thanks so much, Jerry. If you think you’re an industry legend. Reach out to me and we’ll talk about why you had to reach out to me and I’ll be in touch with you if you are. And I think that we can have a lovely converse. And again, everyone else that isn’t an industry legend listen to Jerry’s advice. This man knows what he’s doing and you get as much as you give in this industry. So thanks very much and look forward to hearing from you all soon. Follow Jerry at Vergil or offline. Fake and hopefully see some of you guys in Sofia as well. In I’m gonna say November was it. In November.
Gerry White
Yeah, November the 10th, roughly.
Chris Simmance
Thanks a lot, Jerry. We’ll speak.
Gerry White
To you all, James cheap wines.
Speaker
It says.
Gerry White
Cheap. What can you go? What can go wrong?
Chris Simmance
And a significant amount. Thank you so much for coming. On cheers, guys. Cheers.