V.O. Guy
Hello and thanks for coming along to …And we have an office dog, the digital agency podcast where we talk to agency owner, directors and learn more about what makes them tick from the things that make them similar to the things they’d rather have known sooner where they’ve had success. And where they’ve learned some hard lessons. All will be revealed. With your host, Chris Simmance, the agency coach, and he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. OK, so let us begin over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Thanks. Voice over guy and on the podcast today we’ve got Bibi, the amazing link builder for a second time. How you doing?
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Hi I’m doing amazing.
Chris Simmance (Host)
So Bibi, anyone who has uh, been naughty and skipped your first episode from last year? Can you let them know if they didn’t already know who you are and what you guys do? What the agency does?
Bibi Raven (Guest)
I’m Bibi the link builder. I’m from Amsterdam. I build links with uh four teams of about 30 people all over the world for our clients in my spare time. I am I play with swords. Yeah, that’s it.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Like agency life so good that in your spare time you like to play with swords.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah, kill people.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, definitely not for real people who are listening. Unless not that anyone’s found out yet anyway.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
No, not for no, of course not.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s what the canal. ‘S for. So how’s the last year been in general in uh for the agency?
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Last year, it’s been really fast, I feel like. But of course when you get older or time flies, I think we have been getting much better in systemizing things and having processed in place, but at the same time, I wanted to actually become smaller to have like a smaller agency, less projects. And I feel like I failed at that so. We, we we we became. Smaller and now we’re bigger again.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Sometimes you’re just too popular, baby.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah. Or just. I don’t know, I think.
Chris Simmance (Host)
So. So since we last spoke about basically a year ago, almost this week actually.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah. Wow.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And can you what? What have been some of the UM, the largest or the most major changes in the agency?
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Largest changes I don’t know.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Was developed the most.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
I don’t know if we changed that much. I think some things have more solidified in terms of systems and processes, but I think one of the biggest changes is they incorporating AI in all of our processes. So that’s that’s the the last couple of months.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And and this is, I’m definitely talking to the real baby right now, yeah. So we’ll talk. We’ll talk about that in the in the second really, because obviously the industry has adapted a huge amount over the last year. There’s been typical SEO normal. I say normal normal digital marketing changes, but there’s also been this kind of. Relatively sudden March of of AI. Last year there were there were tools available, but they were they were that that they had limited use cases and. What? What was it that that was the trigger for you to start implementing things on a on a large scale for the agency?
Bibi Raven (Guest)
I think we we had, we were using some AI with tools just to play around with, but it was all. Sort of. Yeah. Limited for us or it wasn’t better than the than the human aspect. And then when ChatGPT or Chepito got released, I started playing with that and then I was. Then I thought to myself the only limit here is is your imagination and what you can do with it. Right. And of course to panel is is very high in intelligence and low in wisdom. So you have to take that into account. But other than that, it was so, so easy to. Work with and. So intuitive in a way. So I think that’s that’s where it left the field of the the, the IT nerds and the mathematical and logistical logic people. And it became part of the realm of creative people and a lot of things that we do in the agency. It’s all about being creative. So that’s what changed.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Agreed. Yeah, it’s I, I, I’ve played with it quite a lot as well and I think that. It is the old garbage in garbage out thing. You you have to spend an awful lot of mental energy and tuning it, should we say so that it behaves or the response it gives fits the needs that you’re trying to meet. If you just say, give me 10 captions for an Instagram reel. About fashion, it’s going to be really generic. But if you tell. It you are. X and you know about this, and here’s some did you do you know about these types of people and you create a conversation before you give it the the actual task. It can. It can generate an. Awful lot of value for you.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah. And it’s it’s very similar to creative flow because if you if you want to do something creative, for most people, it doesn’t really work to sit down and be like, OK, this is the structure, this is the format I need to do AB and C you have to sort of **** around a lot first, you know, play around with it, don’t have a really set goal in mind at first. So that you get really familiar with the tool. So when I train people on AI in the company, I asked them first to spend 15 minutes every day for a week or something. Just ask it. Whatever you want doesn’t really matter. It’s not for work, right? And that’s how they learn. And the the parameters in which they can work and. Stuff. So where do you think?
Chris Simmance (Host)
It’s going to go for the agency.
Speaker
Bibi Raven (Guest)
I think everyone is going to have their own assistance in a way. So instead of themselves seeing them selves as an assistant, they’ll have an assistant, they’re going to save a lot of time and. Yeah, I think I. Think that’s that’s it. We will be able to get more focus, more strategy stuff, be more relaxed.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And I think for for the business that you run and the types of clients that you reach out to, it’s as human to human connexion really. So those roles will be pretty. They’ll be there will be.
Speaker
This test.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Uh, they’ll if they use the tools as a tool and then they’ll get more value. But it isn’t a a junior SEO who’s doing a million page titles who won’t need to have a role doing that in the future because those sorts of things will be automated. But the outreach, the creation of good content and the creation of things like that, those are the sorts of things that will just help help people in, in kind of link building roles, presuming that link building always remains link building as that. Develops as well.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah, I I also told everyone like no one will be replaced by this tool, but. You have to learn. How to work with it?
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, agreed. Agreed. UM, I think if you’re if you’re running. At usual, say in inverted commas, full service digital marketing agency where you do SEO, PPC, et cetera and so on, quite a lot of the the bottom heavy agencies where they hire lots and lots of juniors that they train as they go, they’re they’ll struggle more than agencies that have a lot of creative and account management. Aspects UM, but that’s just about developing as opposed to adapting and developing as opposed to, well, hopefully not just suddenly closing. Doors. There’s a lot of agencies that I’ve been speaking to though that are firmly in the camp that this is just another fad and that it’s just going to go away. Not sure about that one personally. Bit crazy.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
That’s so interesting. They should look at other industries, so I have. I’ve I’ve been. Familiar with AI for a long time, like one of the friends I used to play Dungeon Dragons with for years, like your years back, he he’s a professor in AI at university. And he was one of the first ones that programmed the AI robots for the Olympic Soccer games. So there was AI, not Olympic, but the AI world soccer.
Speaker
Oh wow.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Cup or whatever. And another friend. He owns a company AI company called Brain Creators, and they have they do a lot of stuff with visual recognition. So they do all the stuff at the harbour port. The recycling, you know, identifying certain objects in the recycling all the. So you should look at other industries where AI has taken root and and that that was 20 years. Back, you know, so it’s just gonna happen.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah. And it is. It’s going to make a change. I think that quite a lot of those agencies that I mentioned just they’re. They’re the ones that are. And still offering quite low cost work because it is the model works that way for them still, which is they they’ll need to change. Uhm, in with all of this happening, obviously there’s a lot of things changing. Umm, so that means processes and systems inside your business to obviously incorporate quite a lot these changes and and you know you said you you went the business grew and sorry. You, you. You. Shrunk the business and then it’s grown back again and things like that. And I think when we spoke last on the podcast, you were saying that, you know. That you you get a lot of leads in. Yeah. What? What’s been kind of one of the the biggest wins for the last year, what’s something that’s happened in the last year that’s been like celebration with?
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah. So I went on a holiday in. I think it was June or no. Or was it April? I don’t know, went. On holiday and I went to the beach house and then the Little beach shack. And I read this book called the Dream Manager, right? Because I don’t know **** about management. And I thought the dream manager was about how to manage. And but there wasn’t. The book wasn’t about. It was about a company cleaning company that had a lot of turnover. I think I’d tell you this before or no. OK. OK. So I was about the big cleaning. It was a parable, not a. Real story, but a. A cleaning company, they had a lot of turnover. And the the point was that nobody could really progress in a company that much. The product is the service is really simple. You can become a manager or something, but there’s not. Much to go. And it’s a **** job, basically. So they appointed someone who was gonna form these coaching groups and help people achieve their dreams. So big and small. And that person became the dream manager. And then I thought, this is cool. This is where I can offer people more and become also a better company, not just, you know, better company in terms of sales or anything like that, but. But just be a better company for. The people that work. There. So we started a coaching group and. Called it was back then it was called the Dream Project. And we asked everybody to list. Everybody wants to be part of the group to list UH-100 dreams in, in different categories or purpose, health, physical appearance, travel, all those things. Well, and the point of that was that if a person was asked to do 100 dreams, then at least they will have 20. You know, even if they’re stuck. Getting 100, they’ll have enough. And then together we would pick some dreams to work on. Start working on. Like 3 dreams maximum and and some things could be very simple and other things could be, you know, like long term. Never going to. And so we started doing that and that has been amazing. So every week we have a a group call and then everybody goes through what they what they’ve done. You know, it’s like and it’s and now it’s called Project Firefly because at the beginning of the project, there was this guy who said. I want to see fireflies. It was just something. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s a that’s a cool dream because not everywhere.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
No, and and then he. And then we said OK, so maybe you need to research what needs to happen. You know? So he went to insects experts in the in the neighbourhoods and they told them, look, it’s going to be very hard. You have to have a plot of land and you have to ignore it for 15 years and then maybe Firefly shows up, you know, so he. Was like, OK, that’s not going to happen. So then we talked about, but why do you want to see these fireflies? Because all good. Also good to talk about wine. And and then we we did determine that there was about this feeling of childish wonder, you know, like having that feeling again. And then we said, well, there are other ways you. Can get that. Too. So he went through other ways to get that, and that was really funny in December, which is like six months after he actually happened to saw fireflies by accident. So coincidental saw fireflies. So he wasn’t even looking for them. And they just happened. He was driving in the car and then they saw.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s awesome.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Them they stopped and then looked at him. So other people have things like they wanted to start a business, you know, alongside with their job. So they started the sticker business. They’re now selling stickers at art galleries, which is is causing a little bit of a passive income for them because. They don’t have to. Actually, put any time in it, other people wanted to travel, so they’re now doing a digital nomad. Staff stuff somewhere in the mountains and things like that so. That’s been a huge change for the company, the Dream Point.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s really good. It is, and it’s celebration worthy because it’s not, it’s it. It’s. It’s nice that you’re that you’re pushing that because it’s it’s not what you normally would expect to hear in there made 10 new clients or a million. Extra revenue or, uh, all of these things. It’s very culture focused, which is, which is really nice. And I think in an industry like this, obviously everyone speaks about culture a lot, but no one really understands like what it means and how to do it and I think. When you see that look on people’s faces. But you know when the the person saw fireflies. I bet that was a a really nice experience for everyone to hear. The story.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yes. Yeah. And I also like it because a lot of people are talking about Wellness, especially with remote work, but it’s all very structured like we have to have our Wellness programme the, the. The but this is more like what do you want, you know? And it doesn’t even have to do with your work. That can be something stupid, you know, like somebody wanted to declutter.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Their I don’t know. Their bedroom. Fine. You know nothing that’s stupid, but. You know, it’s and enough. Yeah. And even the people that are not in a group, so not everybody wants to be in a.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s awesome.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
I’ve started to notice that everybody started working all things you know, so somebody got dyed their hair or got a tattoo or they started. They we have office stipends, so everybody gets money to spend on stuff for their Home Office. And then at some point I said, you know, you can also use it for a Wellness thing. If something makes you happy. Ask me first, of course. Yeah. But then then it’s cool. So somebody bought a microphone, which helps with the meetings. But she bought it because she wanted to sing again. So.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s lovely. That’s nice.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah, but, but I don’t want people to start buying coffee at Starbucks or anything. It has to be something that’s. You know. Yeah, I. Don’t know you know what I mean?
Chris Simmance (Host)
Unless you really want that.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah. Yeah. Unless. It’s really gonna make, I don’t know. It’s not.
Chris Simmance (Host)
So. So with all that in mind, what what’s been one of the the things from you AA, BB perspective? What’s been one of the most sort of enjoyable elements of professional slash personal growth over the last 12 months for you?
Bibi Raven (Guest)
For me. Oh, yeah. So so in the dream project, I I had this goal for myself to travel more because I I don’t think I’ve travelled enough, but somehow it’s always holding me back, you know, cause holidays. You want to spend with your family and stuff. But then it was Alida, solace. She was pushing me like, hey, you should speak at places you know. And I was. I was like. No, no, I don’t want to speak.
Chris Simmance (Host)
She’s good at that.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yes, but then I connected. She’s really good at elevating people around her. And then, but then I connected the the travelling with the speaking and I was like, you know what, I’m just going to pitch the.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s it.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Places and then I have to triple there. And of course it’s not. It’s not like a a holiday on a beach or whatever, but it’s just a short little thing. Yeah. So, yeah, so I’m going to Brighton, I’m going to Chiang Mai, but all day as well, I just came back from Majorca. We’re going to Boston, you know, so those are. It’s a it’s a little bit of a mixed professional and personal because it’s also to. Do with the speaking.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, I mean. When I used to do quite a lot of speaking, travelling for speaking, it was the same. I I I. Part of it was professional development. The other part was you go, uh, like a day before or day after and you have an extra couple of days. So you get, you know, you might only get one day to walk around the city or around the area. And have a little look, but you get to travel and there’s a stamp in the passport. And if you like it enough then that’s that’s like a reconnaissance for an actual holiday, maybe. UM. But it’s, I mean. And massive credit to a leader in all areas of this industry for obvious reasons. But she does do a really good job of that. You should do this thing you know, elevating of people of of people, because she, you know, she, she, she she goes to a lot of conferences and she sees a lot of people who speak who probably those slots might well have been better for for BB the link builder. Potentially, and things like that. And you know it’s nice for you to to, to, to push yourself as well. And I think they’re the one in. I’d love to go to Chiang Mai. I’d love to do that, not necessarily for the conference, but for that to just to go see that city because it’s, I bet you it’s like a beautiful chaos from videos and things I’ve seen. It’s probably really cool and and it’s also a really good conference to speak up from what I’ve seen as well.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah, I really, I really. I I always wanted to go to Chiang Mai, but I never thought I would be speaking there. So. So yeah, that when that’s when I got the news that that I could speak there I was just. Like OK, now I. Gotta do it. Yay.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Brilliant. That’s awesome. What? What would you if we’re if we plan to speak again in roughly a year’s time? Obviously, hopefully in between then. But for the podcast, and what would you say? What’s what do you say would be like your main focus for the agency in the next year?
Bibi Raven (Guest)
UM, yeah, I still want to become smaller again. It’s gonna be eternal struggle for me.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Like the, UM, the the the tablets that you take in Alice in Wonderland.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Oh yeah, yes, but the cookies. Yeah. So the cookies and the drinks, I think but. But yes, I still want to become smaller, but. Maybe, maybe not necessarily smaller in the amounts of people that we employ, but more in a number of clients that we have. And then I want to spend more time on a side projects. You know that’s our own leads and affiliate sites, all that stuff because that’s where I I started and that’s where my business partner started too. So it’d be great. To get back into. That we’re slowly, slowly getting there. That’s also somewhere where AI is going to. Play a a. Big part I just got a subscription to. It’s called zoom writer from Matt Zimmerman and it’s combined TPT chat with I think server or phrase and then something else. So you have. Yeah. You have the advantage of the AI, but coupled with actual actual data, real live data. So.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s cool.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah, because AI makes stuff up a lot. Have you ever tried having a I count the number of words in a text?
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s all.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
OK, ask tibeto. He’s wrong always. Except if you ask him to list it in a table and then count it, it will. It will count it correctly, but right after. If you put the same paragraph in and say how many words? Is this it? It will give. You the wrong amount of words.
Chris Simmance (Host)
I think that’s what you where you what you said earlier intelligent but doesn’t have wisdom. It doesn’t know how to cause. It’s a language model so it doesn’t know. Yeah, necessarily how to comprehend the question well.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
I don’t know.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Weird. Maybe it’s counting spaces? Who knows.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
I don’t. Really weird. It’s it’s. I don’t know what it’s doing. I asked him. So why did you do it wrong the first time? And then they said I’m a language model just like you. I make mistakes. I was like.
Speaker
Chris Simmance (Host)
Fair enough. And right. So this time next year, we’re going to talk about your main focus to see how you got along, if that’s if that’s good with you, we’ll book.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Oh no.
Chris Simmance (Host)
It in right now. No pressure.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
This is really good. This is a good measuring point.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Exactly. I can be a yardstick for the year and so hopefully see you in Brighton and definitely look forward to hearing about how Chiang Mai goes. But thank you very much for coming along on the on the second podcast.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Yeah, it was really nice. Thank you so much.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Thank you. In in the next in our next episode, we’ll revisit another agency leader and see how their last year has been. So thanks very much for listening.
Bibi Raven (Guest)
Thank you.