Voiceover Guy:
Hello, and thanks for coming along to …And We Have An Office Dog, the digital agency podcast, where we talk to agency owner directors, and learn more about what makes them tick. From the things that make them similar, to the things they’d rather have known sooner, where they’ve success, and where they’ve learned some hard lessons, all will be revealed with your host, Chris Simmance, the agency coach, and he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. Okay, so let us begin. Over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Hello, thanks very much voiceover guy and we’ve got on the podcast today Himani, how are we doing?
Himani Kankaria:
I’m doing great Chris, thank you so much. How are you?
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Good and it’s lovely to see you again just after brightonSEO in April. So when this goes out to air, it will probably be there, the September edition of brightonSEO. So hopefully I’ll be seeing you very soon.
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah, absolutely, fingers crossed!
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So tell us, who are you? What do you do at Missive Digital? Tell us all about the agency.
Himani Kankaria:
Right, so you know, I would say that, you know, before coming to directly talk about Missive Digital, let me give you a little background of where I come from.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Please.
Himani Kankaria:
So I did my IT, so I’m an IT graduate and so I had a couple of knowledge around, you know, programming languages. I had the, you know, understanding of how technology works, the programming languages and the technology that works around the websites and all of those things. So I was… I’m pretty much aware about that. And even in that point in time, I was not too much into the coding stuff. I more likely loved creating the algorithms, processes, and
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mmm.
Himani Kankaria:
software project management. I mean, that was something, my favorite subject, software project management. So I loved that and I was pretty much happy doing it. So I, because I was a little less excited about coding, I had an option right after the graduation that whether I should go for a PHP course or a search engine optimization course, because that was trending in India when I graduated, right? So it was that kind of thing. And I thought that, okay, PHP would be too technical and too code stuff. So I would say, okay, let me stay away from that. Let me do a little course from search engine optimization thing. So I was like, I did that from a local training center. They were also into agency as well. So while doing that course in one and a half month, I believe, they hired me as their first, you know, person whom they have hired from the training side of the project that they had. So like they hired me and within six months, I was appreciated. I became the team lead. I started training new team members and oh my God. So that was great. And
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Hang on,
Himani Kankaria:
that’s how.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
what you’re saying is you’re a very good but massive nerd.
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah, could be. Yeah, could be.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
haha
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So what brought you to
Himani Kankaria:
exactly.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
set up Missive then? Where did that link happen?
Himani Kankaria:
Right. So, you know, while I was working this, I mean, I guess 2012 and 2013, both were the years where this Panda and Penguin updates came, right? So
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
I remember
Himani Kankaria:
that
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
it.
Himani Kankaria:
shattered.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
I
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
still have nightmares
Himani Kankaria:
exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I still remember that I was, you know, serving a lot of clients. I was a team leader. I was managing people and those things happened. So it almost affected the entire industry
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm.
Himani Kankaria:
that happened worldwide. But I guess even Indian was there. And we had a lot of your local Ahmedabad based agencies were quite closed. So it was very difficult, like, because I took a little break after that, you know, working in the agency
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm-hmm.
Himani Kankaria:
for my family thing. And when I wanted to return to the SEO industry again, it was like, you know, I was very much, you know, into that thing that, okay, there are no agencies out there. I have to struggle. I have to prove my worth that
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
no, I am someone who can contribute. So at that point in time, I tried experimenting with the content stuff. So I started writing content. I used to write poems in the college and I used my bad talent to create some blogs, articles, those kind of things. So yeah, so I mixed both of them.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
It was a natural fit in a sense to start going as you do.
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah, exactly. So it was that kind of thing.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
And how
Himani Kankaria:
So
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
long has the
Himani Kankaria:
I,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
agency been running?
Himani Kankaria:
so agency, I mean, if I talk about Missive, Missive is like, you know, it’s just two and a half years old, but my entrepreneurship journey started when I saw my first content getting onto the featured snippets,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
like in 2015.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Okay. Yeah. I know that I know the feeling, um, similar kind of thing. You know, you, you, you get a, um, something happens and it’s like a switch that goes in your head and you go, I can do, I, I like this. I’m
Himani Kankaria:
Yes.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
good at it. I enjoy it and
Himani Kankaria:
Yes.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
I can make money from it. So I’m going to turn
Himani Kankaria:
Right.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
this into a business.
Himani Kankaria:
Right. Absolutely. So that was the time when I shifted from full-time job to the consulting and then agency happened.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So what would you say since the agency started has been one of your biggest successes that you’ve seen?
Himani Kankaria:
Okay, so if I talk about the biggest success, I would consider success as a different metric and not in the numbers of sales
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah, yeah,
Himani Kankaria:
and
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
the results that we achieve. But yeah, so number one success was that the moment we announced that, okay, now Himani Kankaria has a team, we were bombarded That was one of the biggest success metric
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Oh, well.
Himani Kankaria:
that I consider.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So this
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
so as soon as people realize that you had a team behind you, they were ready to
Himani Kankaria:
Yes.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
go. That’s that’s cool. So you almost had a bit of a waiting list in a sense. It’s amazing.
Himani Kankaria:
Absolutely. Yeah. So I already had my personal brand, right? People knew somewhere that, okay, this lady is doing something, you know, she’s based in India and they are doing something. But the moment I announced that I have a team, I mean, I found that there were people who were silently observing what this lady has been doing.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm hmm. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So it kind of it, the second that you’ve officially kind of put the flag down and said, this is where I am. This is the this is a business now with a team. There was a queue
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
at the door, so to speak. So that must have made it like for the first few years, like it must have been, well, really easy from a sales point of view, because they’ve come to you.
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I was like, okay, the effort that I had made, like say seven years, eight years earlier, I guess that has helped me
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mmm.
Himani Kankaria:
get, you know, very good like sales pipeline for Missive.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So is there anything in this journey that you’ve been on, is there anything that you, if you could go back in time and give yourself a piece of advice, either before you started the agency or even when you got your first featured snippet and decided to be an entrepreneur, what piece of advice would you give yourself? When would you give yourself that advice?
Himani Kankaria:
Right. So if I have to give myself an
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah,
Himani Kankaria:
advice,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
you’ve gone back
Himani Kankaria:
like
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
in time,
Himani Kankaria:
that.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
like Superman style, back in around the planet millions of times to wind back the clock.
Himani Kankaria:
Absolutely, absolutely. So I always give this thing that, you know, I wanted to work on, you know, core, just, you know, very core SEO agency, like, you know, larger agencies,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Okay, bye.
Himani Kankaria:
because where I have worked is corporates and I have worked as a you know, at a very small agency, right? So I had never experienced how these larger agencies manage their projects, manage their timelines and all of those things, because we, you know, being a small agency at the moment, and we are actually, you know, positioning ourselves as that, you know, we are kind of a people that, you know, they have a small, but they are like, you know, firecracker,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
you know, it’s kind of
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
that. So we want to position them at… I mean this way, but yeah. So, you know, I wanted to experience the culture that
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm-hmm.
Himani Kankaria:
the larger agencies have when the team grows, right? So that is something that, you know, I would give myself that advice that, hey, Himani, you should have gone to a larger agency, worked, you know,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
understood their processes and maybe,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
seen the mistakes that they make.
Himani Kankaria:
exactly,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
exactly. That would have saved my time, you know?
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah, I think though, I don’t know about you, but I often find that the best lessons are the ones where I make the mistake.
Himani Kankaria:
Okay.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
They usually cost a few pounds to solve, but I learned them much quicker when you have to kind of take the punch in the face yourself. But you’re right in what you say. I think that if you’re… If you had taken experience in a larger agency, you’d have learned some more things about the process, the way that they handle it and stuff like that. But also potentially, you might have missed an opportunity because you didn’t start your agency when you did. That queue of people at the door might not be there. So if you weigh these two things, would you give that advice to yourself?
Himani Kankaria:
Ah, I guess now you got a point,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Hmm?
Himani Kankaria:
I believe. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So now that reminds me of my second success metric is that there are a couple of clients that we have acquired. I mean, not acquired, but yeah, we have onboarded. These are the people who are some very big shots and they have really had bad experiences with the larger agencies and then they have come to us.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah. So that, I mean, that’s great because in a sense, because you didn’t have the large agency experience, you might have chosen a different way of running the agency,
Himani Kankaria:
Yes.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
which has led you into a position where you retain clients, but you also get clients from the ones that have been upset with the large agencies. That makes sense.
Himani Kankaria:
I’m sorry.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So would you say that, um, like the experience that you’ve had to date when you set up the agency? over the course of time, do you think there’s like something that you kind of wish you’d done sooner? Anything that you’ve done that you’ve gone, we should have done that on the first day.
Himani Kankaria:
I have this very this thing of you know processes Because as I said that you know, I didn’t had the experience of working in the larger
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm-hmm.
Himani Kankaria:
agencies, right? So that you know didn’t bring to me with the thought that okay, I’m starting up an agency I need to set the process of each and everything right? So that was something that you know, I started doing it when I Believed that okay now we are having a lot of clients
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm.
Himani Kankaria:
And I cannot be there for everyone, right? So then the team started scaling up and all of those things. At that point in time, I realized that, okay, if I have these processes set, then my team doesn’t need me every time. So the things can go autonomous.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
And so, yeah, building a thing that you don’t need to be in, but you want to be in is a dream that all agency owners have.
Himani Kankaria:
Yes.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
How much of the doing of the, how much of the in the business time do you spend versus on the business building it?
Himani Kankaria:
Okay, so I would say that, you know, I guess I am involved almost 50-50% of the time because, you know, I have allocated my processes, I have allocated my time accordingly, so that, you know, I mean, every client that we have, I’m always involved in their strategic thing. I’m involved whenever there are, you know, monthly strategy calls or quarterly, the business level goals, marketing goals, and all of those things. So I’m involved with that as well. Also, you know, like since January this year, I have started taking off some of my hands from the content review because we are core content-driven SEO agency.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
So content is something that, you know, we are like really, really aggressive on that. And we have larger review processes for a content, right? So like there was still time in January, till January, I used to do the last review of a content. So it’s something.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
I can imagine, even if it’s been reviewed a few times internally, that’s still a lot of content, right? You’re producing a lot of content all the time. So how did you keep up with that? Like late nights? Lots of coffee?
Himani Kankaria:
Absolutely. I guess everything I would say everything that you know, and I’m kind of a person that you know, who loves early morning thing, right? So I wake up early at seven, I mean, I wake up early at like 630 or something and I start my work like seven, seven 30
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm-hmm.
Himani Kankaria:
in the morning. So those two hours before my morning sync up call, I you know, review everything. that needs my peace of mind, that needs my creativity, that needs my a lot of attention, right? So like I allocate that morning time to that and then late evenings.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So I’ve got a question for you that’s not normally a question I ask in the podcast, because most of the time I’m talking to people from the UK and this is my first recording with someone from
Himani Kankaria:
Oh
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
India.
Himani Kankaria:
wow.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So I’m really excited, first of all, primarily because there’s a massive audience of very smart people in India and they should all buy from the OMG Center. But the question I’ve got is, you’re quite well known from my perspective in the UK and the US. ends of the market from an SEO point of view. How have you done that? Because there’s often a misunderstanding about the deliverables and the types of services from India. So, I know that you’re smart. I know you’ve got a great team. I know you do great work. So how have you translated that so that then you’re, I feel like it’s the wrong word to use, but accepted in the… the global scheme of things.
Himani Kankaria:
Right. So, you know, that was the struggle. And even that struggle that we Indians face is something which is very common, that, you know, it becomes really difficult for other companies from other countries to understand how we operate. But that’s something that, you know, we have kept really this thing very honest and open conversation, even with the team internally, as well as with the clients as well, that these are the processes and this is what we are going to do. So, you know, I would say that most of the conversions that happen is because of the communication that we have done with them.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm.
Himani Kankaria:
So even if we are giving them the proposals, the proposals have all the information, the approach that we are going to do. Even we explain that the, you know, most challenges is with the, you know, you don’t mix up with the intent, right?
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
The queries, keywords, intent and all of those things. Then you don’t do the, you know, black hat kind
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yep.
Himani Kankaria:
of things. And then… old school link building activities and all of those things right so when we don’t talk all of those things when we clear out these things during the first discovery call or the second one
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Hmm.
Himani Kankaria:
I guess their doubts are cleared and then they see
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
And that’s an unlike say it’s a struggle, but you’ve been, I think you’ve been quite successful knowing what I know. I think you’ve been quite successful with with achieving that. So I guess clear communication and consistently clear communication that
Himani Kankaria:
Yeah.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
we deliver good work is great. So I’d say that’s also a success.
Himani Kankaria:
Absolutely,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Back to the first
Himani Kankaria:
absolutely.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
question there, you see.
Himani Kankaria:
That’s right, that’s right.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
So, so throughout the growth of the business, what do you think, um, like looking forward into the future, do you think, what do you think like might be, um, uh, your next big challenge? What’s what, what are you looking at on the horizon? What’s the, what’s the aim?
Himani Kankaria:
So, you know, the aim is to, you know, like even we have started working with a lot of, you know, small businesses and medium sized businesses as well. Till date, we were not working. I mean, our target audience was always the larger agencies or larger corporates or the unicorns, the SaaS companies and all of them. Right. But now we have started working and taking the projects for small and medium sized businesses as well. Because we are seeing that, you know, There are a lot of agencies out there that, you know, they are still using those old school SEO techniques, which doesn’t work. And, you know, I feel for them because it’s something that, you know, even we are not a larger company, right? We are also a small company and small companies also need good work, right? So the aim is that, you know, we want to become that one name for any business who is looking for… open, honest and transparent communication with any service that they take with us.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
And I think you’re very, very right here. There’s an awful lot of small businesses which don’t know what to buy because they don’t have the technological maturity or can’t afford the big fees or they just don’t have the capacity to do it. And oftentimes they’ll buy from the wrong people or they’ll automate something or they’ll duplicate something, let’s say, and the pandas come and get them. And if there’s a way that those smaller businesses can have access to this, then that’s really cool.
Himani Kankaria:
Absolutely, even small businesses have this thing that they have their in-house team, but there is no person who would strategize for them. So we have recently even launched one new engagement model where we provide the marketing strategies, we provide that how each of the marketing channel needs to be done so that your SEO performs, your all the other marketing channel performs. So we become the marketing thinkers, the
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mm.
Himani Kankaria:
marketing strategist for those businesses who have the team. but they don’t have the approach, they don’t have the right strategy to be implemented on.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Mmm.
Himani Kankaria:
Right, so that’s something that we have started doing and we want to touch base every business who is very passionate, a business owner who is very passionate, they want to grow, but they don’t have the right set
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah.
Himani Kankaria:
of understanding.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Yeah. So I mean, for the hope, hopefully this is true, for the most part, anyone who’s running their own business, and it’s even if it’s a baby brand new business, there’s a passion and a desire to grow. And like, I don’t know how many people I’ve spoken to in the past who still don’t even know that SEO is a thing. And I feel like that’s strange to people like us, but I’m pretty confident that that they would be at least asking, like, how do I get found? How do I get found? And giving them access to something that is an opportunity to grow is a really good lofty aim because there’s an awful lot of small businesses around the world. In the UK, I think there’s two and a half million or something. No, not that’s 250,000. I can’t remember now. That’s the totally wrong numbers. I’ll look it up after this. So if someone’s listening to this podcast right now, they’re about to start their own agency or they’ve just started an agency and they’re waiting for your… nugget of advice. What one piece of advice would you give them to take away?
Himani Kankaria:
I would say that no matter whatever happens, even if you are facing budget crunch or even if you are facing issues with getting more customers or anything, don’t deviate from the values that you have created for your business. Because what happens is it is very easy when you see a downfall in your business or something like that, you might tend to change your values considering that no, you need to change this because you want to scale your business. You want to scale your grow your business. No,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Hmm.
Himani Kankaria:
you don’t need to do that because your values will define who you are and how you will run your agency. So
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Really, really good. And, and, you know, this is, I think episode 65, I think, and we’ve had lots of different pieces of advice and that this, that’s a really important piece of advice to listen to if you are listening to this now, it’s really easy to say yes to some money, it’s really easy to say yes to a logo that you want on your, on your creds deck. Um, but if they don’t fit your values, it’s going to hurt both sides and it’s going to cost more than you’d imagine. Um, and I think that’s really good piece of advice there.
Himani Kankaria:
Thank you. Thank you. And if I have to ask you, Chris, what would be your piece of advice?
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Know your numbers. It’s boring, but know your numbers. Understand how cash works. Most education systems around the world don’t teach you finance, they teach you mathematics. Learn the numbers and how they work because I can’t tell you how many agencies I see that have loads and loads of revenue and they’re great and they’re going, we’re making millions and they’re brilliant but… They don’t know how cashflow works and six, eight, 10 months down the road, they’re still making lots of revenue, but they haven’t realized they’re not making any profit and it’s eating away at their cash reserves and they don’t know it because loads of revenue comes in on top of all of the other things. And if you focus on where cashflow is and you focus on your profit margins, like work from a profit first perspective, then you keep your staff happy. You keep your staff paid. You keep your clients happy and you make some money at the end of it. But if you don’t know your numbers, then you know, you can have all the values in the world. You don’t know
Himani Kankaria:
Absolutely,
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
the business.
Himani Kankaria:
absolutely. This is gold. I mean, this is the best advice that you can give to any agency.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast, Dehimani. It’s been brilliant to talk to you.
Himani Kankaria:
Yes, it was an honor. Thank you so much for having me, Chris.
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
You’re welcome and we’ll have you on season two in about a year’s time to talk about how great you’ve been progressing and things like that in the last year.
Himani Kankaria:
Oh, awesome! That would be great!
Chris Simmance – The Agency Coach:
There we go. Thanks very much and enjoy. In the next episode, we’ll be talking with another agency leader to hear their story and the lessons they’ve learned along the way. So thanks for listening in the meantime.