VO Guy:
Hello. And thanks for coming along to, …And we have an office Dog. The digital agency podcast, where we talk to agency owner directors and learn more about what makes them tick. From the things that make them similar, to the things they’d rather have known sooner, where they’ve had success and where they’ve learned some hard lessons. All will be revealed with your host, Chris Simmance, the agency coach. And he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. Okay. So let us begin. Over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Thanks, voice-over guy. And on a podcast today we’ve got Tom Etherington, the MD of Evolved Search. How you doing?
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, good thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me on.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Nice to see you. We’ve had a few instance of rescheduling between the two of us. Dogs and babies related. I understand you’ve got a relatively newborn.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, eight weeks old as of now and just trying to manage the working from home hybrid office life with crying in the background and not jumping off too many calls. But yeah, it’s all the new with our first one.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Juggling an agency on its own is hard, but with a kid, hats off.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, there was quite a lot of excitement obviously when I told the rest of the agency, but people thought it would be fairly easy because I’ve got 50 odd somewhat children that I’ve got to manage and look after, so they didn’t see it would be too much of a problem with a baby.
Chris Simmance (Host):
So tell me, first and foremost give Evolved Search search a plug. What is it you do? What do you do really well? If a potential client’s listening, why should they buy from you?
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, of course. So we’re a performance market agency based in Newcastle. Really specialist in search. So we’re predominantly known for organic and a little bit of PBC. In the past it’s predominantly been content and digital PR. So we sort of rode that wave of the growing digital PR industry. It was what our background was in. So we’ve sort of been at the forefront of that with a few other agencies. And then more recently, in the last couple of years, we’ve added in more complimentary services. So CRO, we do some UX work, analytics and started bringing that together as more of an offer and with more to come in the future as well.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Awesome. And you mentioned 50 staff did you say?
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, so we’re almost at 60 now, or very close to that in the next couple of months. I’ve been there for five years, since 2017. Originally started as head of SEO, having worked at other agencies and then gone through the different roles and ranks and was made MD in January ’22. So a fairly new role. But the last five years, since I’ve been there, the two co-founders, Ian and Dave have pretty much trusted me alongside them, not as much as a founder but to grow the agency and it’s drastically different from where it was so…
Chris Simmance (Host):
That’s awesome.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
I think I was employee number 15 back then and we’ve gone through lots of different cycles of growth and we’re going through another one at the minute as we’ve got ambitions to grow that even further in the next couple of years too.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Nice one. So you say you’ve been there for about five years you say. So how long’s the agency been running in total?
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, so in total we’re just about heading to our ninth year as a business. So still fairly young. We’re starting to lose that as a USP that we’re a new fresh agency, because there’s so many cropping up. But we’ve grown really quickly in that five year period as well and broken through the different barriers to agency growth and continued to, so it’s been a lot. It’s been a long journey, but we’re fairly established now, I’d like to think. But back then, yeah, it was very, very difficult and pretty much an unknown agency when I started there and trying to make a name for yourself, especially in search, was really difficult. So yeah, we’re in a much better position now, but it’s a case that we’re not quite done and we’ve still got big ambitions for the future as well.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Lovely. So let’s talk about this from the perspective of your time in the agency. What do you think’s been one of the biggest successes over the years? Predominantly with you at the helm, I guess.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, I think it depends on the gauge of success of course. And I’ve heard lots of your podcast episodes were different founders.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Oh, so you’re the one listener?
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, must be. And there’s lots of different answers and, like I said, gauges of success. And I think it would be wrong not to acknowledge the external gauge of success in our industry, which would probably be awards, controversial topics. Some agencies love them, some agencies hate them and we’re very much in the love camp. It’s been really beneficial for us. Back before I started, Evolved won a pretty big award for, like I say, an unknown agency. Which is Best SEO Campaign for one of our clients and a team of 12, 13 people winning that campaign, which is usually won by the 100 plus network agencies. It was quite big. So going from that point, and like you say, in the time I’ve been there we did set a bit of an objective to at least win one award. Another one, so we had two and we thought that was a massive success and took us two years to do that and it was required a lot of change with how we did campaigns and the work we were delivering.
But now we’ve won over 20 awards. We’re currently the title holders of Best Large SEO Agency in the North, UK and Europe most recently. So for us to win that for an agency in Newcastle that really likes to punch up above its weight and it’s great recognition for the team, because I never thought there’d be an agency in Newcastle with that title. I wanted to work at the best agencies and thought I’d have to move to London, Leeds, Manchester when I was starting my career. But we’ve done that and, like I said, very early in that journey against some really established and big agencies as well. So that’s a great measure of success I think. And the team really deserve that as well.
Chris Simmance (Host):
And it’s a really good draw for potential staff as much as it is for clients when you win awards, I guess, as well. Because, like you say, regional city, to have as many accolades as you do, that’s fantastic. But I guess it’s helpful to prevent, I guess, people from doing what you thought you might have to do and move out of the area to find a role.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Absolutely, yeah and I think that’s… All the interviews I’ve done over the years, it’s all people tend to mention, “What do you know about Evolved?” Question number one it’s, “Oh, I’ve just seen you’ve won that. I’ve seen you’ve done that campaign,” and it’s great from a new business point of view, it’s got us really far along in terms of where we were with those award wins and an inbound perspective. But staff, most importantly, and more recently we’ve started doing more awards that recognize the culture. So we were recently named… I think we were 11th on a list of 80 small businesses for best places to work. And then they’ve got sublists to that and we were named the best place work for women as well, number one on a list of…
Chris Simmance (Host):
Oh wow, that’s amazing.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
… A lot. That was up to 250 staff of all different sectors, not just agency and digital. That’s all sectors. So number one on that list for the best place for women. Which all these things really do help, but it’s also validation for what you’re doing and what’s been done internally. Because any agency can say, “We’re the best at this, we’re the best at that.” And awards and how they’re done, like I say, can be controversial but it is a great measure of success against other competitors, other agencies and it’s done us really well. So I think the thing that I’m proud of is we’ve managed to get to this point, but it does also say where do we go next and how do we keep that momentum up? Because some of the agencies we’ve seen win these awards in the past, they’ve gone on to really good things. So we’re hoping for the same.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, I mean the momentum is a big piece of that, I guess. When you’re at the top it’s you’ve got to stay there.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah. Definitely.
Chris Simmance (Host):
So if you were able to go back in time ever so slightly and give yourself a piece of advice when it comes to running the agency, this could be way back in time or it could be relatively recent, what one piece of advice would you give to yourself? Would you listen to yourself, I guess, as well? Because quite a lot of people don’t.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, it’s a good question. I mean, going back a little bit when it was myself and the other two directors, we were in that phase of trying to grow. I think for me the best advice would be to stick to what you know or what you know is best for the business and what you know is right as well. because it’s quite easy to get sidetracked with what you see other agencies doing or what you hear on the grapevine.
And we were very guilty of that. Particularly me, that I’ve seen this agency doing this and we need to follow. But really a lot of things didn’t work out for us. Services or approaches that weren’t right for us and right for the team, and I think in terms of knowing what’s right as well, that goes for sticking with clients that you know aren’t a good fit. Our biggest step in growing was actually saying, “No and goodbye,” to jobs and work we could have done quite easily but they just weren’t the right fit and right budget. We really had to stick our neck on the line and say, “This is the type of work we want.” And had we done that sooner, I think that would’ve really helped us, because we went through a lot of painful growth at that early stage.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, I’ve had this conversation more times than I can count I think in that you need to know when to say no. And it’s hard when you’re a young agency. It’s hard when you’ve got less business experience, because everything feels like it’s a positive thing when you sign someone up. But you know the knock-on impact to the team. If a client leaves and then another client leaves, they feel terrible, they may leave. There’s a cost associated with bringing in a new client. There’s a cost associated with bringing in new member staff, especially nowadays, and saying no sometimes is essentially insurance.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, definitely. And I think if you know it’s not a good fit, speaking of the client point in particular, before you’ve even got to signing a contract, the team that works around you and actually responsible for delivering the campaign are going to see that too. And that affects their motivation, morale to be actually working on that campaign. They have to get on with the client on weekly calls, monthly meetings, whatever it might be.
And those interactions and all of that relationship from the first moment isn’t going to be right. And I think we’ve kept clients, like I say, far too long. And I think it goes for staff too. Having somewhere in the team that isn’t the right fit for a role or isn’t great for the culture. When you stick to what you know is right and stick to what you do best, I think those two things should keep you on the right path as much as it’ll feel uncomfortable. You’ll certainly avoid more uncomfortable situations in my opinion anyway.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, I think you’re right. And, like you say, just with staff as well as with clients, there’s the little red flags that you spot early days when it’s clients or staff, when you’re hiring or selling, and before they’re red flags… I don’t know, call them an amber flag, it’s something where you think, “Is that going to be a future problem? Is that a future Tom issue?”
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah.
Chris Simmance (Host):
“Am I going to have to jump in at some point here?” And sometimes you can get away with them because, okay, it’s just a little bit of a miscommunication or a misunderstanding and everything’s fine. But if you don’t check it out and don’t sense check it, then it can evolve into something which does cause some pain in the future. And any of that pain and any of that friction just over time, it just adds up. It compounds because that tires people out, especially at the top of an agency as well.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
It does. And I think it is a people business a lot of the time. Unless you’re selling a product or build websites and it’s a more commoditized product that you sell, really you’re selling people and we’ve definitely lost people to other jobs, other agencies because of how they felt working on certain clients. I mean, it was in the minority, but it’s still just as a reflection. And I think, most importantly from a business point of view, if you don’t think those clients are going to be a good fit, you’ve got to think really hard about what value is that bringing to you as a business because you want profitable clients, you want clients that are easy to work with and you are going to benefit from. There’s countless examples of we’ve taken a client on knowing they’re going to be hard work. I think that’s quite a common thing for agencies to acknowledge and like you say, maybe an amber flag at that point. But, really they’re not going to be the profitable clients and you going to be dealing with their every whim and every request.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Exactly.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Overwork and putting too much time in. I mean, my role before this one was operations, so I had a really close eye on our profitability, how we were resourcing clients and over-resourcing. And one of these examples that I’ve got in my mind, that client in particular, we were servicing at probably five to 10 times the level we should have been because of their demands. And…
Chris Simmance (Host):
Crikey.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
… Took us a long time to realize and say, “Enough is enough,” but it’s easier to continue and it’s easier to think these things will get easier over time. But if you think of the impact it has on your profit, your people and therefore how you perform as an agency, really you’ve got to be super careful. But at the minute right now with the economic situation, it’s also another time that you’d be guilty of taking on all kinds of business that aren’t going to work. But really it’s just a bit of money upfront and then you’re going to end up dealing with that further down the line. Future Tom or future agency person’s problem.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Exactly. So thinking of problems in a sense, what’s one thing that didn’t go to plan in the agency but having it go wrong has kind of taught you something that’s set you up for the success that you’re seeing now?
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, I think it probably follows on from my point there about sticking to what you know is best. Because we’ve tried working in different sectors, we’ve tried growing and trying attracting clients. Because quite early on, all we cared about really when it came to new business was getting clients of significant brands, household names. And really, once we’d gone through that whole process of even being listers, an agency that could pitch, we found it was much more difficult. There is a place for working with some household names and brands, but you’ve also got to understand the complexity of their businesses and the size of them and the number of hoops you’ve got to jump through.
Especially when it comes to SEO, whether it’s tech SEO and trying to get changes on their website or digital PR and sign off on just even the smallest campaigns. Really, I think, we learned from that and learned the hard way. So what we’ve tended to do in the last couple of years, particularly when the pandemic kicked in, was lean into what we’re best at; our sectors. Where we’ve got the biggest clout, and the most case studies would be automotive for example. So we’ve won a lot more that new business. The team can deliver it easy, we know how to run it profitably and the clients get great results. Whereas at one point we had clients in pretty much all sectors and some are really tough to crack. Finance is really hard…
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, absolutely.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
.. For the type of work we do, gambling or iGaming and these are all really tough sectors. If you haven’t got proven experts and proven track record, just trying it is not going to work.
Chris Simmance (Host):
It’s also that your process can’t be one size fits all, but it can be one niche, or one sector or one type of client. And if you are looking at a standard operating procedure for doing, I don’t know, tech SEO or on page SEO and it’s a totally different sector, there’s different sign off processes, there’s different things that need to be factored in there which often you can’t assume for when you’re just creating a checklist or a process. And, again, things like that can creep in with this additional layers of friction and problems that cause issues down the line, I guess.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, definitely. It’s a good word ‘friction’ to use in this case, because in order for campaigns to run smoothly to get the sign off and the buy in from the clients, that’s everything you need to avoid. And if you look in financial services, how careful they have to be with the types of content they put out and the advice, all you need in that industry is for a digital PR campaign to go wrong and you’ve got lawsuits or you’ve got some really significant problems on your hands.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Absolutely.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Like you said, processes is one thing, but it’s actually all this other context of that industry in particular that you have to find out quickly. And like I say, for us we learnt the hard way. I mean, you could invest all that time, you can invest all that into the relationship with big brands and big companies and learn all their internal processes and systems, but unless it’s a two, three, four year relationship, that’s wasted. You need to be able to apply this time and time again in the same sectors.
Chris Simmance (Host):
And often clients that size have this… And re-pitching is important because it keeps people on their toes to a certain degree. But re-pitching every year is wasteful for everyone’s sake. And sometimes that’s just a natural state, which is quite unfortunate.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Definitely. And I think that’s, again, something that’s quite easy to get caught up in the, I guess, the buzz and the hype of winning a brand that everyone knows and really you’ve got to think about how they’ll look at agencies. Particularly for us in our industry [inaudible 00:19:18] agencies. My view anyway is that, like you say, they’re going to get them to re-pitch. There’s always another agency doing something slightly different and it’s so competitive that you’ve got to look at the relationships that are going to last. And our best campaigns, our best relationships, we’ve got clients that have been with us five, six, seven years now, which I don’t hear a lot of in our industry as being the norm. So we tend to really hone in on businesses that we think are going to be a long term partner and avoid getting into competitive pitch processes and tenders and things where we don’t really stand a chance.
We need to know we’re the best agency for that client. And I think, like I said, it’s very easy to get sidetracked with that and that led us down lots of different paths of just taking on project work that we’d end up having to over-service to get the results. And it’s a slippery slope once you start thinking outside of what’s best for us. And, like I say, that’s probably been the biggest thing I’d go back and tell myself at least. Because, like I say, I was one of the people that got caught up trying all these different things, but really you learn from that quickly.
Chris Simmance (Host):
And if you don’t learn, you don’t last.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Definitely.
Chris Simmance (Host):
It’s a bit of digital agency Darwinism at that point. And just as you said earlier, you’ve seen lots of agencies crop up, there’s lots that have sort disappeared into the ether as well because of not learning their lessons. And part of the secret to agency growth, it’s not really a secret, but part of the thing to agency growth is it’s a hard lesson that you learn every time you make a mistake, because there’s loads of books about how to run a business, but there’s very little about the nuance of everything that’s ever going to happen. It’s a bit like a baby book. There’s thousands of baby books, but no baby book is a real manual to your specific baby with specific things that could all happen at different times. And if you don’t learn as you go, you don’t end up with something that’s long lasting.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
That’s it. And I think it’s a great point, because I’ve read a lot of both agency books and baby books around about the same time, because they overlapped with when I got promoted and we’d announced the baby news. So I can certainly say that neither have really helped. My tiredness level and also stress levels at work could show that.
But I think the best thing to do is really absorb things like this podcast. I’m constantly looking through LinkedIn, subscribed to a few things that really is… I’m trying to learn from other people’s mistakes. And as much as we haven’t crossed those bridges yet, if one agency or founder has said it, it’s worth taking into account because it’s inevitable. They’re all very similar business, they’re identical in places. So really there is steps to avoid, so to speak.
Chris Simmance (Host):
I think with that in mind, peer-to-peer learning is quite important and how you get that learning is, like you say, through LinkedIn or other methods. But peer-to-peer learning is quite powerful, because someone will make a mistake or learn a lesson or find something out that you can shortcut your own lesson making by taking that advice and applying it to your situation. You don’t have to take every piece of advice.
Community is a good thing as well, because there’s a safety net there. Yes, there’s lots of competition in the industry, but there’s enough lunch for everyone to eat.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah.
Chris Simmance (Host):
So if you’re in a community where it’s a bit of a safe space, where you can talk to each other and share things with each other, share pains as well as wins, then you’re going to learn more because you share more and take more from the community as you put in. If someone’s listening to this podcast right now, what one piece of advice would you want to give them if they’re thinking of either starting an agency or they’re in a position like you were where promotion to a leadership role was on the cards? What piece of advice would you give them?
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, it’s probably a few things that spring to mind. But most importantly, I think if they’re looking to build an agency that’s not just a couple of people and they’re doing it for their own lifestyle, if they’re looking to grow something with a team, then I think you’ve got to trust in your people. I mentioned this a short while ago, that it’s a people’s business. Unless you’re selling a product, really people and clients buy into your team, regardless of all the things you might say about your unique approach to SEO or paid.
Really it comes down to those that are working on the campaigns. And we’ve always done that. From day one when I met the two co-founders of Evolved, it was pretty much the first meeting that it clicked because you could see they wanted to put trust in other people. And that’s something that I’ve tried to replicate and I wouldn’t be in my position without that trust and our team wouldn’t have grown the way it has in our culture.
Our culture’s all about through flexibility, putting trust in people and empowering them to do a good job, because if we were just to micromanage them and keep them in a small box of just do this, do that, that’s not great for them and most importantly, not great for the business. They’ve grown our business through their progression and through their development. So I think if you’re going into this or if you’ve recently started an agency with the mindset as the director, co-founder you’re going to do everything, that’s absolutely the wrong mentality to have. You need good people around you, you need to invest in their trade and their development. It can be expensive to hire externally and you can easily make a mistake if someone doesn’t work out in that first six months or 12 months. So really it’s about developing a really strong team and trusting in them to grow the business.
And it’ll get to a certain point where you’ve got to focus on being on the business, not in the business. So actually all these different growth problems, whether it’s finance, admin, HR… We went through a lot of our HR issues quite early on, so we’re equipped now, but all those things take you out of the business and really you need the team delivering and they’ve got to feel like a big part of it too. So that’s what we’ve done. And I think our culture’s quite unique, as much as every agency will say that, but the progression we’ve seen in that five years I’ve been there is people starting in entry level positions, they’re now seniors and leading their own teams. Our senior leadership team’s fairly new and most of them have progressed internally as well. So really it’s a case of getting that team early on and growing the business with them. And people stick along for the ride as well if they can buy into it.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, I think you’re right. And, like you say, people buy people. And you are not selling a product, you’re not selling a tangible physical thing which someone can hold in their hand. They don’t have to understand how a computer works, but they can physically hold it and they can use it and they know to what it is. If you’re selling a computer, it’s a lot easier. If you’re selling a promise to deliver something slightly intangible that they don’t understand in the future, but you want the money now, it’s the people that make that possible. And if you’ve got good people who you can trust to work in the business, then that allows you to focus on the business, which in turn grows the whole thing. It’s a lovely way of running it and very clearly made a good job of it with the size and the scale of the agency, especially in the last few years when there’s been a huge spike in competing business.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Yeah, definitely. I think if you remove all the other factors that determine the success of the agency, and this would’ve been my other answer to the question about how big a success is, if you remove all those things, the culture’s left. And you can lose clients, you’ll win clients. Some of it’s out of your control, like the pandemic or like what we’re facing now, but really that core team, the beliefs and the shared values, is what will last and that’s what carries the agency, not trying to make a quick bit of money taking on big clients or getting sidetracked with an exciting project. It’s really what’s best for that team. And if you make your decisions from that basis, like I say, this is a lot of learning to get to this point and we haven’t always done that, but like I say, that’s what’s going to be left over if you removed all those other factors.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Completely agree. Which is a fantastic way to end the podcast with some great, well, double advice in a sense. So thanks very much, Tom for coming on.
Tom Etherington (Guest):
Thanks very much. Thanks for having me, Chris.
Chris Simmance (Host):
No problem at all.And in our next podcast, we’ll speak to a different agency leader to hear their lessons and find out what they’ve taken from it. Thanks very much for listening.