Episode Seven – What is a Thought Leader?…Seriously…

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Hey, how is? How are you doing guys?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

I’m good, thanks.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

But that’s the first first intro role of the video that I just spent way too long doing so I was laughing my head off, so hopefully people watching this equally enjoyed it.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

It’s the same music that I have in my head when I’m strolling down. The street. So the yeah, yeah.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

It’s kind of like a theme tune for for like a jolly old life.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

Yeah, it’s a good bumbling walkie-talkie.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

How are you doing guys? It’s it’s a. It’s finally starting to to get a little less wintery I I feel, hopefully we’re we’re coming out of out of winter, I don’t know the heating still on there everywhere. Whereabouts are you based, Mindy?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Well, I’m in Saint Albans. And yes, as we’re doing this live, we’re coming out of winter. But my friends in the southern hemisphere, they’re going to be entering their winter, sadly.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

The UM your you’re from the states, aren’t you?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

I am and I also have a home in Argentina, so it’s always the opposite there.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Yeah, you probably get end up getting the flu if you go between. The two too frequently. And Ross, you’re you’re in your office today by the looks of it, with your wonderful backdrop of your boom. Rest boom, disco.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

In many old London town, yes, I am. Indeed, St. Albans isn’t that far from where I am, Mindy, but it’s like, well, I’m in Community Wharf, so it’s a miserable grey where I am. I’m jealous of your little bit. Green space.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

You know, we’ve got some real natural light.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

There we have, yeah.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

So everyone watching this live or in the future, if you’re live and you got any questions, just ping them in the chat in the future, you can just give one of us a shout on Twitter link. In Facebook’s carrier pigeon smoke signals whatever you want, and we’re always happy to to to, to to talk some more, we’ll jump straight in. I think if if you guys are are call and we can sort of chat away as as we go. So for those of you who don’t know Ross Ross, give us a a wee intro. And then and and Mindy as well. Tell us. Tell us who you guys are and why the heck I’ve could manage to to to make you come on this.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

I’m Ross tandale. I’m the managing director at Appmedia and fuel consultancy based in London have been in industry for just over a decade and it’s literally the only thing you’ve ever done for a career. So very good SEO, terrible at popcorns.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

And, Mindy, you don’t work in SEO. You don’t work in digital marketing, digital agency world. But you’re here for a very good reason. So tell us all about. You right now.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Well, we don’t have 16 hours, but now my strange accent is because I grew up in the states. So you know, we we can get at that out of the way. I’ve been in the UK 31 years. I’ve run a couple of companies and I’m best known for a book coaching brand called the Book Midwife. And having helped 1000 entrepreneurs with their books over how many 21 years, and I realised it’s not about books, it’s about thought leadership. And so I started going down that road and created the thoughtful leader and that’s my big passion.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

And you’ve done a TEDx talk, haven’t you?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

I have.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

I mean, I’m never gonna get invited to an actual like Ted X Ted talk anything like that. And I I’d love to. So and if anyone wants to, we’ll share the links at the end, but Mindy’s talk at the Ted X in. Where was it you did that?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

In Anglesey and Holyhead.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

It was, it was, it was. It was.

Speaker

Up north.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Really good. And it was like pro like I love how like they they put so much production quality into those into those events. It looks brilliant. So happy to share the link. To this. So today everyone, we’re going to be talking about like what a thought leader is and what how that kind of works in the digital agency space and it’s is a word that I think gets overused and probably incorrectly. And that’s why Mindy’s here and and and Ross and I are here to a probably learn something that we thought we knew. And be probably give a few perspectives from the side of of of of hopefully I I’m obviously a thought leader. Everyone knows exactly who I am. Somehow. Uh, but we’ll jump straight in and so first and foremost, what what WTF is a thought leader? I I I’ve. Got a thought in my head that there’s just someone that kind of knows a lot but and gets to speak about that a lot, but. You know what? What’s the what would? The The Mindy version of a dictionary definition be.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Oh well, so there’s the dictionary definition, and then there’s the mini definition. When I was researching this in 2008, I went online and this is what I found. Somebody who is recognised by their peers and mentors for having the courage to share innovative ideas. And I thought something was wrong with that and I started playing with that and it’s because it you don’t just need to be recognised by your peers and mentors is the market who decides? So by the way, my clients never are allowed to call themselves thought leaders. So I’ll call. You one, Chris, and you can call me one and we’ll call Ross one. But let’s not call. Ourselves thought leaders.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

I love that. That, that, that’s that’s so, so essentially someone, someone who kind of has the courage to say what what they understand what they know. But in a in a, you know from a professional point of view is that. Where we’re coming at.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

I I would add. To that I mean. It usually these days to stand out has to be bold. It has to be opinionated and and it has, it has to be disruptive in some way. It can’t be the old same. Old. I’m sure Ross would.

Speaker

OK.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Yeah. So Ross, Ross is infamous in the industry for a video Series A few years ago called the Canonical Chronicle. So I’d I’d say that’s arguably something that’s a thought leadership piece there. Ross, what do you reckon?

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

It was interesting. The canonical chronicle was new, so you’re really just parroting back what has just happened. But when you start flavouring it with opinion and getting people to actually have a bit more divergent thing. Thinking, I think that’s when it really comes into its own, because I think with thought leadership there is the status quo. But in order to get to the state score, someone had to have some divergent thinking of the last status quo, and then we all agree that that is correct. And then so you constantly taking evolve your thinking around it and in technology. That’s actually incredibly easy because by very nature it just evolves all the time. I think the tricky thing when it comes to doing this on a regular basis is to not fall into this trap of being caught in a news cycle and just being a news. Commentator and then badging yourself as thought. They’re very different things, and it’s usually grounded in some sort of philosophical direction, not just parroting the kind of the the thing of the day.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

And it’s really easy to just do that though, isn’t it? From a, I guess not just from a laziness point of view, but not necessarily knowing how to do it, but kind of wanting to to have some of the benefits and. And and and and I don’t know what what your thoughts are guys but I I see an awful lot of people in the digital space specifically because that’s where, you know, we live and breathe most of the time who don’t actually have anything to say but say it with a lot of confidence or more recently. I’ve seen things where you can definitely see that they’ve been using an AI tool to create the content. That is their thought, leadership content. What what isn’t a thought leader.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

OK so I liked what Ross said about not just parroting what’s going on, saying something new. Now the word I like is disruptive, but a lot of people just have shock value, you know, so some celebrities, for example, that you know who they are, you they get your attention. They have lots of. Followers, but they’re not really saying anything important. So I have a good bash at celebrities whenever I get the chance. And the other thing is. When you are trying so hard to say something new, you can go too far. You get these people who are just contrarian, like everything they hear. They’re like, no, actually it’s the opposite. And it that’s not thought leadership, that’s just contrarianism. Or whatever the word is.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

You you get, you get a lot of the well, actually lies in the digital agency. Please and I I I personally like provoking that and and people who eventually mute me on Twitter and know that that’s the case. Ross, you’ve seen some of those sorts of things before as well, but you, you in in an industry where things change all the time, but actually fundamentally things don’t change a huge amount. It’s probably quite hard to work out where. To put yourself do, would you agree?

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

Yeah, I think staking a claim to a particular area is a bit of a mistake. We see people that niching down. Which is not thought leadership. It’s just another form of PR. And I think what a lot of people confused. So you mentioned AI earlier, so anyone who is currently pushing out things about ChatGPT. Not really thought leaders. They’re just PR people because what they’re doing is they’re following an editorial calendar and a news agenda, and that’s one real fundamental difference is you can have walked to the beat of your own drum and you think about first principles. Quite a lot. So in the world of search. Yes, it doesn’t really change a lot. But the way in which we interact with the first principle concept does change based on how the environment moves around. And that’s something that I thought leader understands deeply. If you think of there’s a lovely Bruce Lee quote around. He’s not scared of the man that knows 1000 kicks, but he’s scared of the man who’s practised one kick 1000 times. That’s very true in this case, because you have to be very familiar with the. Fundamentals, that kind of move around your topic in order to really like intellectually spar with it because without knowing those deep fundamentals, it’s very hard to. It’s all about questioning status go and it’s very hard to. Look at them objectively. If you’re constantly on this editorial cycle of the new thing that we want. To talk about.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

A perfectly timed question actually come up from Adele. But isn’t that the nature of social platforms? If you wait too long, you’ll be on mute for a long time. Potentially. Yeah, I definitely AM. What are your thoughts between balancing authenticity and the algorithm? Because you do, you do have to balance that quite a lot if you know how to be seen. You’ve also got to be seen, I guess.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Are you asking Ross or?

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

No, you you, you. Go first. You go first, Mindy. We’re we’re all going to talk over the top of each other at some point.

Speaker

OK.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

I I’m always I’m always polite, you know that. I’m. I’m funny enough. That is one of the attributes of a real thought leader, not politeness so much as respect. And I think that’s how the market decides. So like I said, nobody should be calling himself or herself a fault leader. And the market decides because you can’t just say I’m doing thought leadership or I’ve written that. Thought leadership piece. It’s the clients and you know your industry, who need to pick up on that and call. You one so. If you are engaging in some kind of conversation, so to answer a deal question. You can be authentic, and in fact, you know, I like what Ross is saying because it’s, it’s like Gladwell, 10,000 hours, which is an arbitrary figure. But if you have some depth. You actually can state something with confidence, with clarity, with substance. Substance is a big, big part of it. But also with respect. So there’s like, there’s no need to just be sparring for the sake of it, or just be contrarian for the sake of it, Chris and anybody else who likes, you know, having it go. But if it’s something you really believe. It comes through and and I think we get that we get that from good speakers and people who are writing authentically.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Yeah, and. And what, what do you think, Ross, about kind of balancing that authenticity algorithm being seen for the things you want to be seen for, but also have? And to do lots in order to be seen if that makes sense. Hopefully that makes sense.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

Yeah. So I mean this this question shows me that the, the A deal hasn’t actually pushed out a lot of his own stuff. And the reason for that? Is the algorithm usually favours things like engagement metrics and people don’t engage with people who are not authentic and the reason they don’t do that is because if you’re not authentic, you’re not enthusiastic and it’s. Like we can really tell if something’s. Long as humans, so we’ve got there’s a lovely design things. Is that like the best design is invisible. You don’t realise it’s bad design until you can really see it. And it’s the same with thought. We just shared content production all of that sort of. Stuff. The question is purely phrased and chasing an algorithm. And being authentic as you’re being authentic, it increases your engagement. And I know that sounds very woohoo, right. So we come from the world of like, hard numbers, AdWords money and money out, that sort of thing. And there is definitely. A technical part of nailing the algorithm, but that comes from the way in which you publish things. It doesn’t come from the creative you’re producing. So separate those two things in your head, and it tends to work a little bit better.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Can I add to that? Because Chris and I were skiing together, not together. He’s much better than I am. And he snowboards. But we were away in. The Alps in January. And I didn’t post that week very much when. I posted all the pictures of the ski trip. I got like 500 to 800% more engagement. I got all these people really latching on to that. And you know all the likes and even shares and like, why are they sharing my ski photos? And maybe it’s along with Chris making a funny face. But the fun thing about it was. I then started getting loads of engagement on all my stuff and I actually posted something on LinkedIn saying. Ohh this strange thing happened. I got all this engagement on my ski photos. Maybe I should only post ski photos and that created another whole discussion, but it’s not about the ski photos. It’s about being personal. It’s about sharing of yourself. And yeah, I think being being personal. Is a big fun.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

I I I saw someone do. That wrong recently where they did a a very salesy post on LinkedIn and then a picture of a dog. And it wasn’t even their dog. It was like, from Unsplash or something like that. And I’m like, oh, OK, you’re hoping someone presses the like button because of the dog, but doesn’t read the content or you want that? How how’s this working? So kind of move. Move along in the same sort of direction. That we’re we’re we’re. Talking, I think I know what your aunt’s gonna be to this. Mindy. But can everyone? And be a thought leader and kind of at the same time. So you know, if you’re in a room full of very well versed, very well, very knowledgeable people about a specific subject, obviously none of them calling themselves a thought leader would would it if you were, if they were to line up and point to the person to their left or their right, would they say? That’s a thought leader, thought leader, thought leader. And if everyone is 1 in that situation, does it have the same meaning?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

I think it does still have meaning when used properly and like I say, you know more or less objective lists. If there is such a thing, people who you know have metrics and reasons. I mean, I created a whole methodology to measure thought leadership because I thought it was important and it’s not just. He’s won. She’s won, he’s blah, blah, blah it. You’ve got some kind of something to back it up. And I also believe in nanonet. Thing and it’s it’s even more specific than micromachining, and I think that if you have, I don’t know, a million different nano niches, then you could have a million different thought leaders 1. Per niche but. You also don’t only have to have one because think about the people we follow. Online and they may, they may be very similar. You follow them for different reasons. I’m not going to start, you know, quoting. Well, I will. You know, I I find motivational stuff, you know Jay Shetty, for example. And Gary Vee, very different personalities, very different language use of language and yet you know, they both kind of are trying to inspire people. You’ll find that you’ll find multiple people, but with a different angle and what you guys think.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

What do you what do you reckon, Ross? Because.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

It depends on the framing.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

We go to a lot of conferences like that.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

Yeah, I think it depends on the framing I. Think it’s very fluid so. If we think. Of like. Like a thought leader leader being like the one at the front, that like leads a. Lot of other peoples. Thinking semantically, by definition not possible for everyone to be one in the same industry because. That’s just people. Talking in a room, right? And also what it means to be the leader or to be the best changes overtime. And when we look at things academically versus practically as well, those are we’re we’re looking at completely different definitions. I like your thing about nano niches. One thing I would say to that is on the academically I like it practically I I struggle with it. I think the reason being is on an audience side, there’s a level of consumption fatigue. However, I suppose if you’ve got nano niches, I suppose the the audiences are different for everyone. Is that is that right?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Yeah. So there’s always a market is one of the phrases we say at my company people are like, oh, you know, is there a big enough market? Let me do some research and and I just say chill out. There’s always a market. It’s a. Question of getting so niche and so specific with. Your topic that you know the people will find you and also we all know a lot of people who’ve made good money from 100 clients. So you don’t need millions.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Absolutely. I think this this kind of follows on quite neatly because I’ve asked you this already. So I kind of know what you’re going to say. But I really I think there’s you, you talk a lot in, in your coaching and training side of life around thoughtful leadership. What is it? Is it the same? As thought leadership, how how? What? What are the differences? What does it mean?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

OK. So yes. Thank you very much. Is I miss my. Baby. But I know well.

Speaker

Perfect.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

I happen to have one here that I’m giving this someone later on. There’s there’s a phrase that I really like, which is. Thoughtful leadership is thought leadership with more thought. Put into it, which sounds kind of funny, but there’s a lot of stuff. Noise that’s called fault, leadership that I think people haven’t thought through and they, you know, why they put it out there without thinking it through is beyond me. So here at the thoughtful leader, we just say, well, it’s like fault leadership. 2.0 it’s. It’s the next level and people smile and and, but they know what we’re talking about because you know, when you do have a word that begins to lose its meaning because people are throwing it around and not using it properly and using it for everything and. Telling themselves thought leaders, something needs to be done. So we’ve raised the bar. We’ve changed the conversation.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

What? What, what? Are your thoughts with that in that with that in? Mind there, Ross?

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

Yeah, I think. Very business dependent. So in agency land, I think that’s it’s very dangerous to conflate. Thought leadership and thoughtful leadership because with agencies it is a formula business with a set amount of parameters that you need to act on from a technical point. Of you. And it’s dangerous to stray away from that too much with esoteric, you know, over the top new innovative leadership styles. However, you do still need to carve out some space to allow innovative leadership within the company. So with everything, it’s really striking a balance. But when it comes to leadership in the world of Agency, I would actually say being closer to standard rather than closer to. The thought leadership is important there because consistency just due to the nature of the type of business is very important. Now, if you’re in a high tech startup, perhaps that would slightly change, so I think it’s. Take the structural part of the running a business. And just seal that off into like standardised. Leadership, but safe space for innovating that’s away from. Core business that will eventually philtre through the company.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

May I take your phone?

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Yeah. Go. Yeah, I’m. I’m just, I’m. It feels like I. Like I said, I asked you this before and you gave me an answer before Mindy and I’ve heard your response. Now Ross is on top and there’s an additional dimension there. So waiting to hear more.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

No, I know. Well, that’s it. That’s why I wanted to continue the conversation, at least for a few minutes, because. I meet so many agency owners when I am out there working and online, so many, not just owners, but you know, people who represent the agency. And I’m afraid that they all start to look and sound and smell the same to. Me and they. All say the same things, and they all talk about, you know, the the conversion and the ratios and the SEO and the this and that and whatever and. It’s not really about that, and it might sound fluffy and esoteric and I apologise because what I didn’t explain is we’re actually talking about the substance of the message and the person who’s delivering that the the. Purpose of having multiple thought leaders or ideally, thoughtful. It doesn’t mean whole thoughtful it. It means thought leadership to it. So having people in the agency who are out there credibly saying something important that makes heads turn, that can differentiate the agency from another one. Or five or. 10 or, you know they’re I need. A lot. I mean, maybe, maybe. Each one is able to differentiate itself. You know better than I’m explaining, but I just think that most. Most business people. Could do a bit of. Thought into their thought leadership.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Do you? Do you think much like, uhm, the the typical leadership principles, management principles, all of the core skills that that people really need to run a business? Do you think that like, do you think some people are just naturally good at it? Do you think everyone would benefit from training? Not that we’re trying to sell training, but by the training there’s a link at the bottom. Uh, but uh. Is is it something that that is better learned or is it are there some people who are just like complete naturals?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

I’ll just give you my quick opinion, which is some people do tend to embrace this and and you know, go for it in terms of putting their ideas and opinions across and doing it credibly, doing it bold, boldly and with respect. You know, so it it they get the balance.

Speaker

Do it, yeah.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Right. They’re engaging people trust them. There’s that authenticity that, you know, our our viewer was asking. Other people need to understand how to develop that, how to develop their ideas, how to, you know, work with them. And you know that’s that’s where I play. I don’t play in any other area of leadership, only development of ideas, discovering and developing the fault leaders, but also helping them discover. Develop and disseminate their we’ll call it content, but we. Usually we don’t use. No word.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

So I’m I’m itching, I’m itching to to know now. You you held up your book a second ago and I kind of want to know a little bit about that because I’ve just bookmarked it on Amazon.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

OK. And and I wanna. Hear Ross’s.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Oh, yes, please. Yeah, sorry.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

About the individual, no, it’s OK. Let me. Just answer about the book because you know the book. Is, first of all, I work with books and I have to always have the latest flagship book to represent my stuff. So this is my latest. Flagship book, it’s not my. This book, the point about the book, is teaching people to be thoughtful in both senses of the word. So yes, there’s the ohh, thoughtful, considerate this also thinking through your ideas in a methodical way, which is the skill set that we’ve developed here. And we’ve got this methodology for people who are at risk of putting. Out bland, boring content because they don’t know any better. So this is what we’ve been doing, you know, on the book side with all these hundreds of clients. So the point about it is you have to care enough you have. To be thoughtful enough. To put the time in, don’t you? You you know, in order to to even put the extra time and effort in to to developing better, more hard hitting, more exciting, more disruptive content. You have to care enough to do it if you don’t care, just tell the AI to produce it. You know that’s.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Yeah, I mean it, it can be used for other things rather than that. But I do think a lot of people are using it for that at the minute. So, so, Ross, do you think thought thoughtful leaders and thought leaders are born or or they’re made?

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

I don’t think they’re born, and I think if leaders are born, it comes from some pretty painful adversity that we’ve been kind of forced to figure out over time. I think any sort of leadership position requires a level of coaching and that’s not a plug for the MG Centre, although I do use coach.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

But there’s coaching available by the. Coaching bye bye bye.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

Yeah, yeah. And and the reason, the reason I say that is because being able to someone to objectively hold a mirror to you is very important. In your data. Today, in terms of individual leaders like the way in which that’s looked at, we psychologically it all really ends back with psychology, the individual’s personality type, they’re attachment style is actually a big one. So if you’re dealing with people on a consistent basis, the way in which you interpret the way people communicate with you. It’s a fundamental like the lens in which you consume information will fundamentally dictate how you lead and also how you then push out information will dictate how you present yourself as a. Not leader, if at all, and I imagine that’s one of the kind of interesting things to kind of really break down someone’s personality and understand where their authenticity actually lies. And look at how that can then be extrapolated, digitised, then pushed out to the the Internet. I imagine that’s. A big part of the work. That that maybe does and what what?

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Goes into. This is perfect timing as I move through the questions come through on Twitter from I I I didn’t see who it was. Joe had to copy and paste this from a tweet. So forgive me, what would be my first steps in trying to become a thought leader? Is it training? Or something else. I’m guessing that Joe’s in or works at, or is the leader of an agency, so it kind of ties nice neatly into this segment here, so. And what what? What would you say, Mindy? How? Where would you? What? What would? You do first cause if if. If Joe is indeed in a digital agency, he or she or they are seeing a lot of this going on and they kind of like, well, I think I. Got something to say where? Where? Where, where, where do you go first?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

So the very first step step. Zero, as it were. Seriously. Deciding how important it is, do you have the right intention to do it? Because jumping on a bandwagon, you know it’s dangerous, you can fall off. And what I would say is if you make that decision and and you have the reasons for that, I don’t care what they are. I don’t care. It’s ego driven, you know, I want to be seen as a thought leader and you know, have millions of followers. That’s fine. Or if it’s more of an. Altruistic, you know. I want to leave a legacy I. Want to give back to the next generation like? We get all this sort. Of stuff coming through in, in our agency and I don’t want to judge anybody. That’s the first thing then. I think that you know, you really have to look inside and say am, am I willing to do the extra work because. It’s not for the faint. Hearted to to really dive deep and to pull out your brilliance. If you wanna call it that, it takes it takes effort. Like you know, Ross was saying about somebody’s been through. What we tend to do with some clients who are willing to kind of go the extra mile is unpick and unpack stuff that they have been through and find a way for them to share it. That builds credibility and doesn’t hurt their reputation, so there’s so many aspects to it, so it’s having the courage to do it. The willingness, you know, understanding it’s gonna take extra time and effort caring enough. To do it. And then you know, yes, there’s loads of, there’s training, there’s coaching that, you know, but to do it properly and and to have that integrity not to put out a put out a piece of you know something that’s not the right quality.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

And and Ross, you, you, you are in a digital agency, you run a digital agency at some point in the past in building your own kind of thought leadership in the sector in lots of people know you and respect your opinion in the industry. So where did you go first? What did you do? What was the? What was your what? Did you have a step zero? Was there an approach?

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

That’s a really good question. I mean the no is the is the answer and and I wish I could come to you with a like a beautifully drawn out schematic of. This is exactly how I thought and I have all. This wonderful. Thought process behind it, but ultimately no. I think one of the things that stops people is this extreme inertia. About steps I love step 0 instead of step one. That’s great, but they have this extreme inertia about starting because there’s too many. What if this? What if that questions that come up and now you could ask yourself these questions till the end of time or you could put something out and see what happens and maintains at 10 the answer is. Because you have to consistently do it and build. So publishing is one thing, right? That’s like building a muscle. You just need to do that consistently over time. What you put in the. Thing that you publish. Is the thing that will eventually create some level of differentiation. I’m in two minds about saying that you need to be a subject matter. Expert in order to be a true. Thought leader, I think it’s important, but also there will always be someone smarter and greater than you. The people we know respect in the public eye about physics are not working in CERN like splitting particles and atoms and things like that. Those are different people, I think.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Brian Cox’s sorry to interrupt you.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

OK.

Speaker

We’ve got one.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

So, but the people who are are great communicators. Brian Cox started, you know, he started his career.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Is it banned music?

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

OK. Yeah, a musician, right. So like a great communicator on a human level. And someone who’s incredibly. Authentic. And I think that’s a big part of it. So star and it builds the communication muscle up quite a bit. So then you start realising that this is actually quite straightforward. And it’s not scary, but it’s hard and requires effort. And I think that allows you to build a bit of a muscle, whether or not you can then be seen by your peers as a thought leader is a completely different subject altogether. I think that takes a lot of hard work and expertise. But in terms of? Getting going and getting started. I think the answer is just do something now and and put it out and then. Decide based on the feedback you get. From the real world.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

And and and so from. Oh, go on, Mindy. You you’ve got something to say whilst. I’m. I’m going along.

Speaker

I want.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

To say yes and I want. I want to be more inclusive and say yes and and and I mean it. You know that that is absolutely a good way and people really shouldn’t sit on the sidelines and wait. And you know our viewer. Before, I was talking about, you know, waiting for the time and missing the boat and all that. However, I think with a process of some kind, some coaching and some support in this area, people can get a better ROI on their content and you know, get get that result sooner and well not I think I know because we’ve. Worked with people who, you know, really weren’t doing anything. And then in a very short time. They’re getting. They’re making a bigger impact. They’re getting that feedback and you’re absolutely right, Ross. The one thing that we can’t control is how it’s gonna be received. So you know, we do all this work, all this planning, all this strategy and you know, produce great stuff and then let it fly. And like I said. Before the market decides, you know, we we cannot control how how it lands.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

Just to add, add on to that. So I completely agree with that. Like proper strategy will you know you’ll reap the rewards and will be higher ROI at the end of it. It must be the miserable Scotsman in me when my team get give any process they get, given the hard manual way when we’re onboarding people, they get the hard manual way first. And then they slowly get the thoughtful strategy way. And then so they can eventually understand how it got to be automating things like that. Now, if you’re running business, that’s a horrific way to run business because time is money and you need to just get a good strategy and get to. To market with it, it really depends on the person. I think the person as you know that asked the question, Chris. I can influence that they were in a slightly more junior position in life. I think the advice for them is just to start. But for actual business people who are looking to capitalise on this, I think surround yourself with good people and actually putting. Your money to work. A little bit and getting the right people to help with that. Strategy would make a tonne of sense.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

So besides all of. The the nice things like, you know, the respect that you might get as a as a from from from being seen as a thought leader by your peers and things like that. And what can it actually do? What how? Does it? How? How can it work for you if you’re building? A business? What? What? Give us a couple of examples, Ross. What’s what’s thought, leaderships or value been to Taipei?

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

I mean it can give you a massive complex. So when I first started some of the things that people were saying about me was around, you know, I sound like Mrs Doubtfire and things are things of that nature. So there’s a little bit of that we need to develop some thick skin around. And because she was such a contentious. Topic. There’s a lot of people that want to battle you on some of your ideas, but I actually see that as a good thing, not a bad thing. In terms of hard ROI, we’ve been able to build a 7 figure agency off the back of it. Hilariously, though, we do a, you know, we’re a SEO company, all of our leads come from our social media leadership pieces. Read into that how you will. So it’s been ROI positive for us. It would be hard to put a number on it and it’d be hard to really say this was the absolute tipping point. But to give you an example, when the pandemic hit I got terribly depressed because I was the person pushing. Outlook this stuff, it stopped our agency for two years. However, we created such a flywheel that our leagues didn’t stop. So that I think that’s probably testament to the previous four or five years of doing this stuff. And you’d be amazed that everything that you put out there, it echoes and it resonates and it just and it keeps going and going and going. So otherwise, yeah, I think that’s been it’s been pretty Roy positive. Agency side.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

And what? What do you reckon, Mindy? What? What are the kind of aside from? Hopefully what the obvious are. What are some of the other core benefits that you you kind of see from the people that that you spend time with?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Absolutely. So definitely financial, definitely business, the leaders and the business owners I’ve worked with have been able to charge higher fees. They get invited to speak more often. And and for higher fees, they get invited to really interesting opportunities, joint venture startups, investments or all kinds of things. So they they become known, they become seen and trusted and all that stuff. But there there is that. Other side and and I feel I have to bring it up again. Which is the feeling of giving back, leaving a legacy, making your mark, whatever you. Want to call. It you know, a lot of us who have started businesses and I’ve started 6 in my short lifetime. You know, we just want to know that we’re doing something good. And while you’re in the business, head down. Everybody said, oh, work on the business, not in the yet. Very nice, but you very rarely get to step back and work on the business and take a look at that bird’s eye view and see the impact that you’re having. And I know that’s not a tangible, measurable ROI, but that’s what I hear more often than not from every single client is they feel they’re making more of a difference. They’re getting that feedback and they feel valued and that their work is valuable.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Awesome. And so last kind of sort of wrapping up final thoughts, what what what would you each sort of offer as a final thought to to any of these agency leaders that are listening right now and what what’s your one bit of advice, Mindy, what would you? What would you leave them with?

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

Piece of advice. OK, So what occurs to me right now is you know, everybody is in this conditioned behaviour of, you know, the media and what’s happening and the news and the economy and all this.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Only one. You only love one.

𝗠𝗶𝗻𝗱𝘆 𝗚𝗶𝗯𝗯𝗶𝗻𝘀-𝗞𝗹𝗲𝗶𝗻

To step away and figure out what kind of leader you want to be, what kind of business, what kind of agency you really want to run, and consider that that’s one of our favourite words here. Consider what you could do to create this thought leadership profile for yourself, but also. You know the legacy it it does inspire your team it it goes beyond it, has the ripple effect on your clients and and the rest of the industry. So that’s what’s up for grabs. But to to go someplace have the time and space. To reflect on that and and ask yourself if you’re willing to go that extra mile and be thoughtful in that sense, and then create the thought leadership that that you can create only. You can create.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Yep, wonderful final thought from Mindy Ross. What’s yours?

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

I’m going to bring down the tone and potentially say something that may be construed as slightly distasteful in that. I would say to people. Really think about speed and aggression. What I mean by that is there is so much noise and so little signal. That, as you put things out there, especially if you’re a little nervous of it, if it’s your first time or you’re starting to get into it, you may think that, oh, God and everyone is seeing all, oh, God, I’m spamming these people. People are gonna be seeing this and hating it and thinking this, that and the other they’re not. They’re not. They’re barely seeing. Anything you do. So I would really go hard and fast with a lot of the publishing side and the technical side, however. That does not mean that you create something that is like automated and rubbish. You have to really think of a really solid strategy where the core thing that you’re talking about and going over is good on its own, without social media and social media is just an. Engine to drive traffic, that’s all that is start. With making the good thing, but once the. Good thing is made. Just completely over index on speed and aggression.

𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲

Yeah, I I I I agree with both of you guys for obvious reasons, hence why you’re both on here. Otherwise, you know it would be a difficult, difficult conversation. Thanks very much, Ross. Thanks, Mindy, for those of you who are kind of thinking, what the heck next? I kind of get with my step zero. I’ve done step 0. I know what what we need to do. If you’re thinking about thought leadership from your own perspective as an agency leader, then obviously speak to Mindy, speak to the MG Centre, have a chat and we’ll, you know, we point in the right direction. But one thing that we didn’t touch on necessarily is the the power of sort of creating that mindset in teams as much as just the leader of the business. And and I think that having the right training, the right skill set around thought leadership in a team, those people become the. The the, the, the. The choir voice for for your agency, they’ll they’ll also become mini niche thought leaders in a micro niche, which is their. Individual skill set in that in that agency and things like that, and they’ll want to go and speak at events or be on podcasts, webinars, all those sorts of things. So if that’s something that you’re you’re interested in in any way. And obviously give us a shout and our next webinar is this Thursday and I promise even though it’s about insurance, it won’t be boring. Michael and Omar really know their stuff and we’ve got a few I’m going to say interesting horror stories relating to insurance. And agencies that didn’t believe that it was as important as it as it it should be. I think everyone in this room knows get the right insurance, but these guys know exactly the the right way to navigate that and they’re gonna talk us through that on Thursday. You can just join. You can register your interest on OMG Dot Centre forward slash webinars but in the meantime have a great afternoon or morning depending on where you are in the world. Somewhat winter depending on where you are in the world and and thanks very much for for joining us you guys.

𝗥𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗧𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗮𝗹𝗲

Thank you guys. Appreciate it.