VO Guy:

Hello. And thanks for coming along to And we have an office Dog, the digital agency podcast where we talk to agency owner directors and learn more about what makes them tick. From the things that make them similar to the things they’d rather have known sooner, where they’ve success and where they’ve learned some hard lessons. All will be revealed with your host, Chris Simmance, the agency coach, and he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. Okay, so let us begin. Over to you, Chris.

Chris Simmance:
Thanks, voiceover guy. And on the podcast today, we’re very lucky. We’ve got two agency leaders on one episode. We’ve got Alfie and Sarah from Zumo. Hello, how are you doing?

Alfie:
Hello!

Sarah Carr:
Good, how are you?

Chris Simmance:
Not too bad, not too bad. Thank you very much. We finally got there. We booked and rebuked and I moved it and you moved it. And we got here eventually. This will be live in 2025, I think at this rate.

Sarah Carr:
Wooo!

Alfie:
my

Sarah Carr:
Which

Alfie:
demand.

Sarah Carr:
I guess I can enjoy.

Chris Simmance:
So tell us a little bit about yourselves, obviously individually, and then kind of a bit about the agency. You never know, there might be a potential client listening to these things. So what do you do and what you grate at and that sort of thing.

Sarah Carr:
Yeah, so I’m Sarah Carr. I co-founded Zumo Agency with Alfie. We’re a personal branding, marketing, and website development agency. So yeah, hot on trending that one.

Chris Simmance:
Nice. And Alfie, how much of the personal branding and website stuff do you do? Is there a dichotomy between the two of you in terms of role? Who does what in the business?

Alfie:
Yeah, kind of. I mean, I’m kind of default MD by accident. And, um, what I really do is more sort of business development, sales training, that kind of stuff for our clients. Sarah heads up all of that side in terms of personal branding. Um, we have another chap that works with us that does the web development stuff. But, um, yeah, I am just the resident annoying individual that makes people buy stuff.

Chris Simmance:
Well, I was told at the beginning of this podcast that just before you join the recording studio, actually, that you sometimes like to be a bit of a troll. So

Alfie:
to me.

Chris Simmance:
let’s see where that takes us.

Alfie:
Yeah.

Sarah Carr:
You gotta

Chris Simmance:
So,

Sarah Carr:
keep it fresh.

Chris Simmance:
sorry.

Sarah Carr:
You gotta keep it fresh and real here.

Chris Simmance:
Exactly, exactly. Otherwise, it’s just boring, isn’t it? And so how long has the agency been running?

Sarah Carr:
So we founded actually in January, kind of conceptualize it prior to that and hit the ground running with that. Just…

Chris Simmance:
Wow. So you’ve not been going for a huge amount of time. I feel like I’ve seen you guys all over the place for a long time, a lot longer than so far this year.

Sarah Carr:
That’s the beauty of a personal brand. But yeah,

Chris Simmance:
And there we go, well done.

Sarah Carr:
so we’ve got a backstory as to why we started then. So we both kind of individually owned our own agencies. And then Alfie and our friend Kieran moved in upstairs and we’re like, oh, we’re kind of in the same field. Should we create a baby and then zoom in with porn? So we kind of merged forces in that sense and it’s been literally a rocket ship ever since, so yeah.

Chris Simmance:
That’s amazing. Is there anything that’s been a standout success since you started?

Sarah Carr:
We’re working with some really big heavy-hitting LinkedIn influencers currently, so we’re literally right out the gate already hands-deep in some good areas. So I can’t say too much stuff pending obviously, but yeah.

Alfie:
Well, I get you said hands deep and not balls deep there.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, yeah, I thought maybe that’s

Sarah Carr:
Good luck. Bye.

Chris Simmance:
an Americanism version of it, I don’t know.

Sarah Carr:
We say balls to the wall, so that’s more of what we would do.

Chris Simmance:
Okay? I mean that sounds an awful lot more painful.

Alfie:
We talked.

Sarah Carr:
I wouldn’t know.

Chris Simmance:
So Alfie, what do you reckon, from your side of the business, what’s been one of the biggest successes that you’ve felt so far?

Alfie:
Yeah, well, like, like Sarah said, it’s been way more successful than we ever imagined. I think, you know, putting three brains together in terms of sales, business development, marketing, personal branding, and web development, UX UI is just the perfect cocktail for any kind of agency. And it’s

Chris Simmance:
Mmm.

Alfie:
so, there’s been a lot of successes. There’ve been a lot of sort of downsides as well, in terms of, um, what we thought we may be able to do a bit of realignment, but I’d say In terms of successes, probably our media partnerships. So we’ve just signed a three year deal with City AM, Bloomberg and Forbes to be their exclusive media partner for personal branding and for a lot of their video content as well and distribution within LinkedIn and social media. So for us and our clients, that’s huge. So that’s probably been our biggest success. But like Sarah said, I mean, we are a new agency, but we’re not in terms of where we are

Chris Simmance:
Yeah.

Alfie:
individuals. We just thought it would be better to let our worlds collide in terms of future thinking and where we’re going. So, you know, we don’t like to call ourselves a startup, if that makes sense.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I mean, let’s be honest, the term startup has been co-opted somewhat by techie businesses that want money for free off of PowerPoint. So I get

Alfie:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
it. You aren’t really a startup. You’ve been several businesses that have merged into one. Well, it sounds like a monster in the making, given what you just said there. It kind of already is a monster based on that nice deal that you’ve just… You just let us know about, I’m interested, send me your rate card.

Alfie:
Yeah, it’s obviously my background. I was just gonna be a bit more information has always been in media. So, you know, I’ve got come out of a career with Bloomberg and Forbes. And after a few years kind of realized, hang on a minute, why the fuck am I doing this for them? When, you know, the clients work with me, not with Bloomberg, if that makes

Chris Simmance:
Thanks,

Alfie:
sense. Um,

Chris Simmance:
thanks.

Alfie:
so, you know, it’s, it’s been a long time in the making and we just literally hit the button on it and it’s just skyrocketed, but funnily enough. We’re always worried about, you know, is this going to come back to buy us, you know, taking these clients away from these big organizations, but it turns out, no, it turns out they want to work with us even more tends to be that, you know, individuals want to work with people, not with businesses.

Chris Simmance:
Yes, yes. And that’s one of the beautiful things about the independent agency is that you it’s people buying from people who work with people to deliver things for people, which makes it a lot nicer, like you can enjoy your life somewhat more if you’re if you’re working for human beings, should we say rather than the logo and the accounts payable department.

Alfie:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you know, there’s, there’s that mantra that a lot of people live, live by, which is people buy from people. And I hate that. Absolutely hate it. I think it’s, it’s a rubbish. People don’t buy from people. They buy from people like them. You know,

Chris Simmance:
Mm.

Alfie:
so this is, this is why what we do work so well is, is because with this, there’s three different personalities in our business in terms of what we’re capable of and what we actually do. So there’s always a fit for whoever we’re working with.

Chris Simmance:
Mm.

Alfie:
You know, people don’t just buy from people.

Chris Simmance:
So how did the three of you come up with Zoom-O Agency then? What were the iterations that came out of that? Where did that

Alfie:
Name

Chris Simmance:
come from?

Alfie:
of night?

Chris Simmance:
Yeah.

Sarah Carr:
Tell the story about the name.

Alfie:
Again, this is another thing. Too many businesses get hung up on a logo and branding and amazing colors and all that. It’s all irrelevant really. I think we were spending a bit of time thinking about logo and branding and I went shopping in Watford one day and saw a juice bar called Zuma and thought that would do. I

Chris Simmance:
But cool.

Sarah Carr:
Yes, it was born.

Chris Simmance:
And there they

Alfie:
think

Chris Simmance:
go.

Alfie:
Zuma needs juice in Spanish or something.

Sarah Carr:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
I mean, it doesn’t matter what it means unless it means something to you and then to the people that are buying from you or the people that recognise it. You know, it’s what your brands, what people say about you when you’re not in the room,

Alfie:
Well,

Chris Simmance:
so to speak.

Alfie:
I mean, who cares? I mean, do you know what? Well, you know, one of the biggest brands in the world, Nike, do you know what that means, what that is?

Chris Simmance:
The Greek goddess, isn’t it? I can’t

Alfie:
Yeah,

Chris Simmance:
remember the

Alfie:
but

Chris Simmance:
name.

Alfie:
I bet, you know, if you asked 8% of their consumers, they wouldn’t have a clue. They’re more interested

Chris Simmance:
Yeah.

Alfie:
in the products than what the brand sold.

Chris Simmance:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Couldn’t agree more. And so if you were to, if you Sarah, if you were to go back in time to when you when this, this behemoth kind of as joined forces, what piece of advice might you give to yourself?

Sarah Carr:
Choose hiring the right people correctly. Because we’ve had a couple of bad eggs already, just a couple months running in.

Chris Simmance:
Hmm.

Sarah Carr:
It’s one of those things that…

Alfie:
Let’s hope they’re not listening.

Sarah Carr:
It’s fine. It could be one of those things where they give a seller interview and you get them into the role and they’ve oversold themselves in terms of capability or understanding of general marketing terms and just one of those things that you have to kind of vet somebody prior to. really hiring them and then getting in the door, especially with the quote unquote startup, because we don’t have a lot of time to sit there and fathom around with people, maybe aren’t up to the job description. So,

Chris Simmance:
and it’s expensive.

Sarah Carr:
yeah, most expensive lesson we’ve learned so far is fire

Chris Simmance:
Well,

Sarah Carr:
and trialing.

Chris Simmance:
people

Sarah Carr:
So

Chris Simmance:
businesses.

Sarah Carr:
yeah.

Chris Simmance:
And what about you, Alfie? What would be some advice that you might have given yourself a good few months ago?

Alfie:
Um, probably it would be earn money first and worry about vanity things later. I imagine, you know, you know, when we, when we started, we were, you know, thinking about what kind of office we’re going to get,

Sarah Carr:
Yeah.

Alfie:
how many people we’re going to hire, you know, do we need this accountant? Do we need this cool stuff? All this really cool equipment. And then one day I sat there and thought, hang on a minute, we’re only doing 10K a month, why the fuck do we need a nice office in Farringdon, you know, those kind of things. So I think, you know, the more money that we’ve earned, the more revenue that we’ve generated, we’ve actually pulled back on those things. It’s kind of strange. So I wish I’d done that

Chris Simmance:
Yeah,

Alfie:
initially.

Chris Simmance:
yeah. I mean, it’s hard, isn’t it? There’s a balance because you’ve got to get the money in. Totally get it, totally agree. You’ve got to build something that’s gonna stand the test of time. And as you grow, having systems and processes and things like that are really important. Having a fancy office in Farringdon, not gonna do very much in the short term and probably not gonna do very much until you need a fancy office in Farringdon. to fit all of the lovely people that you’ve definitely hired correctly who really want to come back to the office and not work from home.

Alfie:
Exactly. Yeah, I think it’s been kind of weird because, you know, as soon as we started exploring the option of really expensive offices, we bagged these deals with those publications where we have free access to their offices, meeting rooms, and we can’t compete

Chris Simmance:
There you go.

Alfie:
with that kind of stuff. You know, you’re talking about the Shard and London Bridge and stuff like that. Come on, it doesn’t make any sense. But yeah, there’s some hard lessons in there, some financial lessons.

Chris Simmance:
Hmm.

Alfie:
I mean, you know, you don’t really learn a lesson unless it’s very painful. And it was.

Chris Simmance:
There is a theme amongst agency owners that most lessons aren’t learned from a book. They’re learned from the book hitting you in the face.

Alfie:
Absolutely.

Chris Simmance:
So is there anything that, apart from like the false starts with some of the hirings, is there anything that you guys learned quite quickly that has now become a written rule, should we say, in the business? Is there something that kind of you’ve realized you’ve got, oh shit, I’m not gonna do that again.

Alfie:
Do you want me to answer that one, sir?

Sarah Carr:
Yeah, I think honing in on what’s trendy, obviously personal branding is so hot and trending and we’re one of those things where I never intended to be in the personal branding space and just having done it for myself, I realized the value in it and then clients started coming to ask and asking, can we do this? This is it? And we’re like, yes, this is the niche that we’ve always been needing to go in and we finally pulled the trigger on that and so probably that. And then I think we’ve kind of got. Obviously these blue chip media corporations that we work with, but you’re not seeing a lot of personal branding agencies pay off with. So we’ve got a capitalization on the market in that sense that a lot of other people don’t have. So I think,

Chris Simmance:
God.

Sarah Carr:
yeah. And then on trendy, obviously get your feet in and if it scares you, probably for the best.

Chris Simmance:
If it’s scary, it’s probably a good thing in the long run, hopefully.

Sarah Carr:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
Unless it’s like an alligator or something, because it’s not gonna do very good in the long run. What about you, Alfie? What lesson, sorry. Yeah, I mean,

Sarah Carr:
I don’t like wrestlers.

Chris Simmance:
there are some of those, I mean, again, they probably learned the hard way what it feels like when they lose. So what about you, Alfie? What hard lessons have you found since starting the agency that you’ve, rather than kind of chalking up to bad experience, they’ve become something that’s really carrying you forward now.

Alfie:
Um, I mean, look with marketing, because I haven’t specifically been in the marketing field myself before, particularly within personal branding and that kind of stuff has been more on the sort of sales side and, and revenue generation, so stepping into the marketing world was kind of weird for me because you’ve got marketers, then you’ve got marketers, um, if that makes sense. You’ve got marketers that are very good just because of talent and they’re marketers who have just learned marketing through some kind of weird university degree or course or. some bullshit thing that they’ve done. Um, and it’s those people that kind of give what we’re doing a bad name because people

Chris Simmance:
Hmm.

Alfie:
step in with, you know, preconceptions and a lot of people chasing vanity metrics, which is very difficult for me to comprehend because, you know, from a business development role, you know, you either make money, you don’t make money. That’s where you’re judged. Those kinds of revenue

Chris Simmance:
Yeah.

Alfie:
results. So, you know, trying to work with people and steer them away from vanity metrics has been. quite a difficult lesson for me to learn. Some people just want to look good.

Chris Simmance:
Mm.

Alfie:
It was difficult at first for us to say no to working with these people, because we won’t necessarily work with people that we can’t get results for. Looking good only works for a certain amount of time, and then they start turning around and saying, hey, look, where’s my revenue increase?

Chris Simmance:
Yep.

Alfie:
So having to say no to those people is quite fun, but also quite annoying. So yeah, I think… One of the biggest lessons for me has been learning to pay attention to, um, different aspects of marketing ones that are good and one of ones that are bad and having to deal with individuals and organizations that have had a terrible experience with marketers before, you know, they’re promising so

Chris Simmance:
The

Alfie:
much

Chris Simmance:
list

Alfie:
stuff.

Chris Simmance:
of

Alfie:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
them are quite long. Yeah

Alfie:
I mean, you see it on LinkedIn every single day and it drives me nuts, but, um, we won’t get into that, but you know, there’s that old saying, isn’t it? I mean, you can’t really learn marketing. I suppose you can learn. skills within marketing, but it’s something you’re either good at or something you’re either not at. And doing a university degree in marketing is almost like going to university and learning how to be charismatic. It doesn’t

Chris Simmance:
Yeah,

Alfie:
make sense.

Chris Simmance:
there’s a lot of the process of marketing, which is learnable, but the empathy and the emotional intelligence required to be good at it is usually an innate thing, which

Alfie:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
I think you either can or you can’t do. And that’s why if you look at digital marketing agencies in particular, who do SEO or something like that, you very quickly see the people branching from say content into technical SEO or development instead of design. And designers are more empathetic and understand how people feel when they look at something. Developers typically look at how to engineer something and there’s a lot less kind of emotion required, I guess.

Alfie:
This is it. I mean, I spend a lot of time almost in interviewing marketers and speaking to marketers within businesses that we’re working with. And, you know, you’ll be shocked. I always ask them, you know, a question, you know, I look at a particular campaign that they’ve done or that they’ve tried to spin up or something. And I say to them, you know, what, what has led to that person actually buying something, making a purchase or deciding to sign up with one of your solutions, you know, why, why did they buy this particular thing? And nine times out of 10, they’ll go, well, I don’t know. They just liked what it is that I’m selling. They liked what it is that we’re doing. And I just find that really baffling. And it still goes on with the market. It’s like asking, you know, high court judge, you know, how does the high court work? And he goes, I don’t know, I just turn up every day and, you know, I just

Chris Simmance:
Yeah,

Alfie:
feel

Chris Simmance:
just

Alfie:
guilty,

Chris Simmance:
what?

Alfie:
not guilty. You know, it makes absolutely no sense. But what are you doing? So that’s difficult. And again, it’s difficult for me, Sarah’s probably a bit more used to it, but coming from an industry where you know, the results are pretty black and white. You do your job, you increase revenue. You don’t do your job properly, the revenue doesn’t increase. So it’s trying to bridge that gap for me. That’s still quite difficult, but luckily I’ve got support from these guys.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I think Sarah, you must see this an awful lot where people want to influence to a degree and they want a personal brand or they want to become a personal brand in some way or another. And they might not necessarily have what it takes to be able to do that. And quite a lot of it, I think, is consistency.

Sarah Carr:
We see that a lot on LinkedIn, don’t we? But I think I come from the understanding that any awareness is good and that will eventually generate the revenue organically. So I often say to Alfie, it’s not always about the ROI, although sometimes he’s like, yes, it is. And I’m always kind of have that little,

Alfie:
I still

Sarah Carr:
and

Alfie:
think it is.

Sarah Carr:
the sense that marketing is it’s awareness and it is that branding, it is people recognize you and then they find you reputable. Then they wanna give their money over to you. So I think it’s that whole journey process through marketing, where you can’t always get hung up on the end results. Us as marketers never promise or guarantee like results, although that is our job, we should be bringing those in. I think a lot of it gets forgotten in the sense that you have to be good at branding, you have to be good at like charisma and understanding people and what’s the problem you’re trying to solve. Bringing that awareness and that quote unquote influence to the people that are, yes, I wanna get my profile out there so people find me trustworthy.

Chris Simmance:
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Carr:
I think my job is to understand that whole process and bring all those kind of parts to it and then obviously bring the ROI, which is, on my mind, that’s obviously important.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah. The ROI is going to be your lagging measure of success. The leading measures will be, you know, how quickly, how many impressions someone gets or what their level of engagement is or how many people recognize them or engage with them or mention them and all that sort of

Sarah Carr:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
stuff. How many people come up to you at an event and say, I saw you online and

Sarah Carr:
You only did!

Chris Simmance:
exactly. And those will be the leading measures that should indicate, you know, the future success. And from a sales point of view, And if your lead to close speed is increased and it’s around the time that the impressions and engagement has gone up, then it’s a sure sign that the ROI should go up unless the salesperson is not good at closing it. And if you’re the same person selling as you are influencing, then you need to maybe learn how to sell as well as market.

Sarah Carr:
Yeah, I think that’s part of it is teaching our clients. We can give you these amazing profiles with all the impressions and all the awareness and put you in publications, but at the end of the day, are you good at your job enough to close the deal and get that over the line when we bring it to your table?

Chris Simmance:
Absolutely.

Sarah Carr:
So again, it’s like vetting our clients and does that really work for us if you’re not getting the results because you can’t do your job. When we’ve done ours, who’s really

Chris Simmance:
Hmm.

Sarah Carr:
to blame here?

Chris Simmance:
So if there’s someone listening to this right now and they’re thinking about starting their own agency, Alfie, what would be your one piece of advice you’d give them?

Alfie:
Pay attention.

Chris Simmance:
Is that for me? Sorry.

Alfie:
And for all the aspiring agency owners or people out there that want to get involved in this weird industry, pay attention. And what I mean by that is pay attention to how and why people spend money. So pay attention to the process, the thought process in terms of an individual. parting with their money to buy a product or service. So for example, you know, when you buy a coffee, we buy a coffee every single morning, we walk past a coffee shop, you know, pay attention to how it is that you’re spending your money. Why are you spending it? What’s pushing you to actually parting with that cash? And you know, what’s allowing that person to take money from you? Everyone uses that term earn money, but no one earns money. You can’t earn money, you can’t make money. Only the Bank of England can print. You’re kind of just taking it. It’s moving from one place to another. So what’s causing that transaction? I think that’s key to where you start out in a marketing business is understanding those processes. And then you can help to implement those processes and mindset changes into your clients’ mindsets as well. I think too many people are kind of focused on the end result, the revenue, but how

Chris Simmance:
Yeah.

Alfie:
did you get there? Analyse every single movement within that one individual’s process to how they actually part with their money and repeat it. But that would be my main piece of advice. And unless you’ve got that nailed down, don’t bother starting agency, it’s not gonna

Chris Simmance:
Yeah,

Alfie:
work.

Chris Simmance:
fair

Alfie:
You

Chris Simmance:
enough.

Alfie:
just.

Chris Simmance:
Sarah, what about you? What’s your one piece of advice?

Sarah Carr:
I think understanding the problem for people, then you can go and solve it. Because if you’re not listening to your customers and the problems that they’re having, how are you developing as an agency to problem solve and eventually get them the results that they want? And customer service comes first. I think that goes hand in hand with that and really just trying to understand and empathize with where they are as a business, you can help them. So.

Chris Simmance:
Yeah, first seek to understand before you can be understood. And the understood bit will be the marketing piece.

Sarah Carr:
the wise

Alfie:
Exactly.

Sarah Carr:
one from Chris.

Chris Simmance:
wise words, that’s a caption there somewhere.

Alfie:
Are you starting to feel the yin and yang approach that we’re

Chris Simmance:
I’m

Alfie:
talking

Chris Simmance:
literally

Alfie:
about?

Chris Simmance:
about to ask a question which may well expose this. So Sarah, what’s your favourite thing about working with Alfie?

Sarah Carr:
the constant banter.

Alfie:
I’m gonna go.

Chris Simmance:
Oh.

Sarah Carr:
And trolling.

Chris Simmance:
Alfie,

Sarah Carr:
Yeah.

Chris Simmance:
same question to you.

Alfie:
Yeah, I think it’s just going back to that yin and yang thing. I think, you know, I’ve, I’ve got a very straightforward and blunt approach to doing things in terms of getting results.

Chris Simmance:
noticed.

Alfie:
Yeah. I mean, look, getting results for clients, it’s pretty straightforward. Problem solution, problem solution. Um, I think Sarah brings a much more human touch to it in terms of being able to expand on those solutions, um, to be able to create a narrative and a story and things like that. And so, you know, Sarah’s incredibly good at doing that. And that’s something I’m not. fantastic at, but I think one of the key things, another bit of advice to the agency owners or agency people wanting to start an agency is understanding what it is that you’re not good at and then

Chris Simmance:
Mm.

Alfie:
try to find help to fill those gaps.

Chris Simmance:
Absolutely. So if it wasn’t going to be a surprise, it is probably going to be a surprise now. Sarah, what’s the worst thing about working with Alfie?

Alfie:
Oh, this is a long list!

Sarah Carr:
Well, probably the trolling. There’s so many comments he tries to leave on the influencers on LinkedIn posts and I’m like, no, delete, delete. And I gave him his own Twitter account. I kind of set it up for him and let him troll with it. And eventually we had to rain that back and have a couple of discussions about

Chris Simmance:
Good luck.

Sarah Carr:
that and copying people’s posts and understanding the ethics of the platforms that we’re headed into as people who are gonna be high profile soon. So.

Chris Simmance:
Brilliant.

Sarah Carr:
Learning the ropes in that sense.

Chris Simmance:
Hopefully it’s your turn to let rip.

Alfie:
Um, probably the accent.

Chris Simmance:
Oh That’s terrible.

Sarah Carr:
What? Harsh! Whoop it’s so true!

Alfie:
Yeah, super positivity. I don’t know. Um, no, I mean, look, there’s not a lot. Otherwise we just wouldn’t work together. Um, but yeah, it’s probably that, probably the accent.

Chris Simmance:
Well, fair enough. Racism aside, thank you very much for coming

Alfie:
No,

Chris Simmance:
on the podcast

Alfie:
no, it’s xenophobia.

Chris Simmance:
there. And

Sarah Carr:
Every day he calls me out on the way that I pronounce words as if it’s wrong and I just say us Americans finesse the English language, we made it better, you’re welcome. And so then I hand it back to him and say, what

Chris Simmance:
There

Sarah Carr:
now?

Chris Simmance:
we go, that’s fair enough. That’s the banter aspect,

Alfie:
I

Chris Simmance:
right?

Alfie:
can see that hurt you Chris, as well listening to that.

Sarah Carr:
I have to do something about that.

Chris Simmance:
Sarah Alfie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Hopefully we’ll have you back in a year or so. It’s time to talk about how far to the moon you’ve gone, judging by so far this year, probably quite a lot of the way there and probably most of the way back, I’d imagine as well. So thank you very much for coming on and hopefully speak to you soon.

Alfie:
You’re welcome.

Sarah Carr:
Thank you. Let’s do it.

Chris Simmance:
And in our next episode, we’ll be speaking with another agency leader to hear their story and the lessons they learned along the way. Thanks very much for listening.