VO Guy:
Hello and thanks for coming along to …And we have an office Dog, the Digital Agency podcast, where we talk to agency owner/directors and learn more about what makes them tick, from the things that make them similar to the things they’d rather have known sooner, where they’ve had success and where they’ve learned some hard lessons. All will be revealed with your host Chris Simmance, the agency coach. And he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. Okay, so let us begin. Over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Thanks, voice over guy. And on the podcast today we’ve got Ethan from Team Hustle. How are you doing there, Ethan?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I’m good, thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me on.
Chris Simmance (Host):
No problem at all. No problem at all. So first and foremost, every single podcast, we get the agency leader to come on and tell us what they do, who they do it for. Why are you special, Ethan? What’s so amazing about Team Hustle?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I don’t know about special, but in a nutshell we’re a TikTok marketing agency. We are a social media agency. We’ve worked with clients across all sorts of different platforms, but I guess, it’s my job as an entrepreneur to deliver as much value as I can to my clients, because it makes my job easier and it means that I can do good work for people and build an agency around it. And I just saw it time and time again that across all the platforms, TikTok was the one I was getting better results on. The ROI people are getting for investing in that platform, which is way higher than anything else. So we still do a bit of Instagram and a bit of LinkedIn where it’s relevant, but for the most part we’re all in on marketing on TikTok and helping businesses take advantage of the platform.
Chris Simmance (Host):
So you’re part of the reason why I can’t stop thumbing through it then?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I am a part of the problem.
Chris Simmance (Host):
I both love and hate TikTok, but in equal measure for the exact same reason.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I think every social media person has this issue of on the one hand, loving social media, loving creating content, loving putting stuff out. On the other hand, having to be very intentional about not getting sucked in to just scrolling and scrolling and you think you’re doing research and then two hours later, you’ve learned nothing, but you’ve watched a shitload of videos.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, you’re doing research, but happen to watch about 50 different dog videos. Yeah, that sounds like me. So what do you think’s been one of the largest successes that you’ve seen so far? Not necessarily just for TikTok, but in the agency, in general.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I think probably for us it was the time at which we decided to double down on TikTok. It was when we’d worked across a few different platforms and I guess we’d gotten used to a certain level of results on Instagram. We had an expectation that we could deliver for a client, like ROI. We know that if we put in this effort, these are the kind of results we’re going to see. Depends on what the client is selling and what their business is about, but we had an expectation there. But then I had a client, who I originally was going to do some work on LinkedIn for, but I said to him, “I have a feeling that we might do a little better on TikTok, so we’ll switch the contract over. Normally TikTok could be a bit more expensive, but don’t worry about that. I just think that it’d be a slightly better fit.”
And then literally like two videos in, the first one did 300,000 views, the second one did quarter of a mil. And that was the point where I looked at that and I’m like, “In 48 hours, I’ve just made this guy almost 15 grand in sales that he later went on to close.”
Chris Simmance (Host):
That’s amazing. So [inaudible 00:03:43]-
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I’m looking at that and thinking, “I’ve never done anything like that on Instagram.” So that was a turning point for us.
Chris Simmance (Host):
So is it end to end for you? So do you do the recording as well as the editing and everything? Or is it they provide the content and you then do the marketing of it? How does that work? I’m coming at this from a I scroll through it looking at videos of dogs and Formula 1 stuff. So I’m a luddy, in this regard.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Yeah, so I think one of the challenges you run into is on Instagram, you can pay a graphic designer to knock out some pieces for you and knock them out. You can pretty much just tell someone what to do and not be too involved. With TikTok, someone has to be in the video so you have the option of hiring a creator to do it or being in the video yourself. And so we step in as much as the client needs us. If they need us to come to location, to shoot with them, to talk them through the scripts, because they’re not quite sure what to do on camera, we can do that. If they’re comfortable on camera and they just want us to write the scripts out, we send it through, they record it, send it back and we edit it, we can do that as well. If they’re super comfortable on camera and editing, then we’ll just sit on a call and talk them through how to think about TikTok and how to use it.
It depends. Some people are super comfortable creating content, just need a bit of guidance. Other people have never even been on TikTok, but want to take advantage of it.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. And how long have you been running the agency?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I think we registered it about 10, 11 months ago now. So we come we’re kind of up to our [inaudible 00:04:57].
Chris Simmance (Host):
Oh, so it’s a baby.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Yeah, it is. We’ve been in social media for a bit longer, just creating content without a particular intention. We just thought it would be a useful skill. And then one thing led to another. I was creating content for the sake of it and someone reached out asking me to make some TikToks for them and they asked how much money I wanted. So at the time, I was selling secondhand clothes, a little side business. I was making 10, 20 pound every time I sold a jumper. And so they asked me how much do you want for these two TikTok videos? So I said 500 pound thinking, “No one’s going to pay me 500 pound for two videos. Man, that’s ridiculous. They’ll negotiate me down.” And they just sent the money. No contract. No negotiation. Was in the bank account next day.” And so I was looking at this 500 pounds and I’m looking at the 10 pound I’m making a jumper and I’m thinking, “There might be something in this, you know?” So that got the momentum going.
Chris Simmance (Host):
That’s the entrepreneur.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Yeah, exactly. And then I fell into it that way.
Chris Simmance (Host):
So normally I talk to agency owners who’ve been running their agency for 5, 10, 15 or so years and so, therefore, I’m obviously talking to them about what have you learned along the way and what are the lessons you’ve taken from all of these long-term experiences. I think it’d be quite interesting to ask you a slightly different version of this question, because you’re in a relatively unique in terms of the podcast position of you’re starting this baby off now. So what’s your vision for the future of the business? What do you see yourself in not interview style question of in five years time, but what’s the vision, what you trying to achieve?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I think if I had to think a little bit wider, I can very clearly see how I’ve been influenced by the Gary Vees and the Steve Bartletts and all these people that they run their businesses, but in a wider way add value to the entrepreneurial community. And one of the ways they do that is through content. But then when you look into it a bit more, there’s lots and lots of things they do just around entrepreneurship to support people. And I think, long term, that is the vision for us. Right now, it’s best to execute through this social media agency, because we’re good at it, we can make money in it, we can scale it to a certain size and we can build a team. But I think across the board we want to hold events for entrepreneurs to connect with people. I’d love to set up some kind of studio space people could come to and create content. And I think I want to be involved in the entrepreneurial community and find different ways to add value to people running their businesses. And right now I do that for a marketing agency.
Chris Simmance (Host):
That’s awesome. So if you were to sort of wanky digital-agency-esque it in terms of your big vinyl print on the wall that says, “We’re going to be here in a few years time.” Essentially you’re saying that the marketing agency is the vehicle where you can support, deliver and add content into the entrepreneur’s space basically?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Exactly. Right now I do it through other people’s businesses, because that’s a nice way of supporting. But as we grow, I’d like to start doing it more through our own agency and just find another opportunity to do what we’re doing now, but on a bigger scale.
Chris Simmance (Host):
That’s awesome. And everyone needs a reason to get out of bed in the morning, especially when in agency land, there’s an awful lot going on and some days are terrible and some days are brilliant and knowing what your end state is looking like. I think that’s a nice way of starting, which is lovely to hear. And I guess you get to vicariously see that now when you’re helping clients, because you know are helping them be entrepreneurial by being on platforms which they may not have had an opportunity to be on in the first place.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Yeah, I think the unintended side effect of all this that is the best part of it for me is that back in the day, the reason I got into social media is because I thought that would be a useful skill for whatever I do. I didn’t particularly care what I did. I tried lots of different things and my instinct was just to use Instagram and TikTok to market them. And I’m still in that position where I like that one minute I’m helping someone sell investment banking training and the other minute I’m helping someone sell a positivity package they send to uni students. I like that variety and the opportunity to not run different businesses, but be involved in the way they think about their products and how they want to present it to people. And I’m picking up… I did an apprenticeship years back in project management and I got to taste lots of different bits of the business. I feel like that’s what I’m doing now. I’m tasting lots of different industries, lots of different types and just soaking it all in.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Absolutely. I feel like I’m speaking to a kindred spirit in this regard, because I used to run digital agencies and now I work, mentor, coach to digital agency leaders. And the reason that I love doing that, the reason I really love doing that is because it’s hard to run an agency. It’s hard to get it right. There’s lots of traps and problems and that gets people down. But the really cool thing is if I get to work with 10 agencies in a year, I get to see 10 lots of success in a year. I get that dopamine hit of success every single time. Their win, it’s their agency. But in a similar way to you, I get to experience lots of very different problems and lots of very different solutions, but get the win to have a share with those agency leaders as well. So feels very similar and I think that attitude is a nice way of living. I think you’ll find that no two days are the same when you look at it that way.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Yeah, it’s great and it’s really nice to learn something with one client and then be able to come back to the other and in a way, from their perspective, deliver that value on top, because they weren’t expecting that. But from my perspective, just taking my learning and then amplifying it in lots of other different situations.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah. Wonderful. So you say that that’s one of the best things about doing what you do. What’s one of the worst things?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
The mental fortitude, man. I knew I’d have to be strong, but this is… you know David Goggins?
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yep.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
This is some hardcore like, “You’ve got to be tough to do this shit, man.” I really had to learn if you’re having a good day, great, but don’t get too excited, because there’s something around the corner. And if you’re having a bad day, okay, but don’t get too down, because there’s something around the corner. Just trying to maintain my attitude, my positivity, not be too optimistic or pessimistic and just be consistent. That’s definitely the most difficult thing.
Chris Simmance (Host):
I think resilience is hard in general, especially with the world on fire all the time. That’s just in personal life. But in professional life, there’s some days where, like you say, you feel brilliant and there’s some good wins. Then there’s other days where there’s setback after setback and fire after fire and resilience is essential. I completely, completely agree with you there. I think you’ve got to take that stoic approach to things in the sense that sometimes it feels bad, but there is nothing you can do about that. So the only thing you can do is act on the things that you can act on. And sometimes I used to take personal upset when a client left for example and that wasn’t a very nice feeling. Client leaves and you feel like, “What have I done?” personally. And then you realize, “Well, actually they’re leaving because we screwed up a deliverable,” or, “They didn’t get the results or whatever they thought they were going to get,” and so on. And you have to take it and face value at that point.
So in the last year or so, what’s been one of the biggest things you’ve learned then that you’ve taken on and it’s now part of the daily working life?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I think one of the really great experiences I’ve had has been in a way, you hear all these really basic things people teach you on social media and talk about, but until you experience and do them, you don’t internalize and get it. But I think one of the best things I did about seven, eight months ago was just full out decide to quit. I was like, “No, I don’t want to do this no more.” I just completely gave up for about a week, maybe two weeks. I just did no work. I just chilled in my room. I watched YouTube videos. I said, “No, entrepreneurship is just too hard. I don’t want to do this.” And so for a bit I just relaxed, because I’d been working so hard. And then at some point you got to think, “Well, what am I going to do now. If I’m not going to run a business, what is the next option?”
And it was through that process I realized, “I haven’t got another option. There is nothing else I want to do. This is super hard, but I don’t want to work a job. I can’t think of a career I want to get into. This actually is the best fit for me, even though it’s difficult and there’s times where I really feel like quitting. I don’t actually want to quit, because if I quit, I get bored, and then I come back to it.” And I think going through that experience for me was so useful, because now when I feel like quitting, I realize that actually I don’t really want to quit. I might in this moment for right now, but I don’t, because if I quit I’ll be back on it in three days time. So since I’m not going to quit, what am I going to do about the problem? Because the problem’s still going to be there in three days.
Chris Simmance (Host):
An agency friend of mine, he says he often has to have a quiet word with his inner bitch and in a sense, it’s kind of like that, “I can’t be bothered. I’m not doing this anymore. I’m sick to death of this. I’m going to quit.” Or “I’m not doing this anymore. We’re going to cancel that client, because they’re annoying,” or something like that. And you walk away, the emotional bit wears away, the rational bit comes in and you go, “Actually, I just remembered all the wins and the good that can come from all this. So all right, okay, fine, I’ll keep going.” And it is part of resilience, but it is also sometimes you do have to let those feelings happen, otherwise you are just going to bot let all up and then explode.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Yeah. 100. I’ve learned to stop trying to push myself on the days when I really don’t want to. Sometimes, all right, you just find something a bit boring and you don’t want to do it, but you get over it, because it’s a quick task. But on the days when you’re really tired and really struggling, I’ve learned to stop thinking I have to keep going and I have to push. Like yesterday I was tired. I got to 5:00 in the evening, I had a couple bits to do, but I just watched some YouTube videos, ma. I just relaxed. And I know all the super motivational people on LinkedIn say not to do that. But I just watched YouTube videos for like five hours and at the end I felt so much better. I was so stressed. I watched them and I thought about the same problems and they just weren’t problems anymore. I’m completely cool to deal with them now. Sometimes you need to just say, “For the next five hours, I quit. I’m good. I’m going to wait till tomorrow.”
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, I think everyone has their own version of that outlet, I think. Or they should have their own version of that outlet. And I think that it is healthy. It’s not healthy if you do five hours every single day, but it is healthy if you use it as a decent place to put your time really. So, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So if someone’s listening to this podcast now and they’ve listened all the way through and they’ve got an idea that this sounds like I want to run a digital agency and they’re just about to start out and they come to you and say, “Hey, Ethan, what’s your one piece of advice that you can give me that will help me set up properly?” What’s that thing? What’s the one bit?
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Have the humility to understand it’s not even you’re inexperienced and there’s lot to learn. You will never, on your own, be able to learn everything you need to learn to run an agency. I’m decent at sales. I’m decent at content. I’m decent at lots of things, but I’ve met enough people now who know how to run agencies that have taught me things that I could work my ass off for the next 20 years, but I’m never going to think of this system, because I’ve just never experienced what you’ve experienced. I was very against coaches and all that stuff until I started speaking to some good ones and I realized [inaudible 00:16:41]-
Chris Simmance (Host):
[inaudible 00:16:41].
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Quick plug. Agencies are very repeatable models. We sell different things in different situations, but at their core, we’re pretty similar. You can connect with our agency owners that apparently do different things, but have the same problems as you, when you realize that your coach doesn’t necessarily need to know about TikTok to be able to help you with your sales process and conversion. And since I’ve realized that, I’ve become much more open to listening to what other people have to teach me and setting up calls where I ask good questions and that kind of thing.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Spot on. And I think the key part of that was that you were ready and you asked for the help or you went to seek the help out. If someone had suddenly started waggling their finger and saying, “Hey, you should do or you should think,” and you weren’t ready for it, you’d say, “Hey, F off, mate. I know what I’m doing.” And then you’d make a mistake or you’d feel bad or something would go wrong, but you’d still think, “Hang on, man, I know best. I know best. I know what I’m doing.” So it’s important that to have that humility, you need to, well, you need to have the humility, you need to know to ask. And you’re spot on. I think it’s fantastic advice.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
I think there’s some things that I still do feel like I would know best on, because I know my specific situation, but definitely the circle of which I thought was unique to me has gotten a lot smaller. There’s still some things that are mine and I should make a decision on, but there’s definitely lots of things that I thought I was making up for the first time that every agency has already solved. I just didn’t know. And now I’ve asked the question. I’ve become humble is the word. I’ve realized there’s stuff I’ve got to work on my own. But a lot of it’s already been done and if you just ask people to write questions, they’ll tell you how to do it.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Yeah, completely agree. And that’s fantastic advice to end the podcast on. So thanks very much for coming along, Ethan. It’s been brilliant to talk to you and massive amounts of fortune in the future.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it and great chatting to you.
Chris Simmance (Host):
And I will curse and love TikTok considerably more now I know a little bit more about how you run it.
Ethan Golding (Guest):
Nice. Great speaking to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance (Host):
Thank you. In our next podcast, we’ll be talking to a different agency leader to learn the lessons that they’ve had and speak to them about what they want to do next. Thanks very much for listening.