Transcript
Chris Simmance:
Hello. Hello. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the latest in our Webinar series and we’ve got Judith, Jermaine back. I had to fight for you. I had to. Get my people spoke to your people for months on end and we’re finally back together, mate.
Speaker
How are you?
Judith Germain:
I’m really good. Thanks all about you, Chris.
Chris Simmance:
I’m really good. I’m. I’m looking forward to this bank holiday weekend more than. You would know and I I I love my job and I love working with agencies, but I’ve done a lot of travelling to see agencies in the last couple of weeks so I’m very much looking forward to creating a Cris shaped dent in the sofa over the course of the weekend. For for those who who who don’t know who, Judith. This Judith is one of our favourite OMG coaches. She also runs her own coaching business. Tell us. All about it. Judith tell us who you are.
Judith Germain:
Hi. Well, I’m Judith Tremaine and I’m all about creating clear thinking and decisive leaders and we do that through the Maverick paradox, which is a boutique leadership consultancy, and we have Maverick Paradox Media that has a magazine and a podcast.
Chris Simmance:
I’m very happy writer for that magazine one time so far, but hopefully more in the future. We’ll see. Thank you so much for coming on today. Judith. We’re gonna be talking today about core identity and how it can bring more clients, I think. There’s there’s a few bits I I’m guessing that we need to. We need to get across very quickly because I I think sometimes it’s obvious what I mean when I say these things and and I and I kind of want to make sure that we’re all talking from the same song sheet, should we say so tell us what you you mean around knowing your core identity because I see it’s trademarked. So there must mean something very much specific.
Judith Germain:
Yeah, it is. It’s more specific than you would imagine. I think if you. Think about it. Your core identity really looks at you in three perspectives. So actually you when you’re in your business and what your business does, So what is the business proposition, what is the processes that are running for the business, what is it? That makes you unique. How do you have the right proposition story and how do you get that out there? And then you look at so that’s like your core proposition and then you look at your core impact. So are you somebody who’s a strategist? Are you a creator? What is the impact that you make in your business and with your clients and how do you integrate that with your core proposition? And finally, you have your core talent, so you could describe the core talent as your behavioural DNA. How do you behave with each other? What’s the core thing that you’ve been doing since child? That is great. So for me it’s all about seeing truth, which means that I’m hyper insightful. So when you get those 3 components and you integrate them and align them, you get your core identity for your business.
Chris Simmance:
I love that it’s it’s a it’s an umbrella in a sense that wraps around quite a lot of things that that people see as individual and and you know, tick box style type things. I’ve done that. I’ve done that. I’ve done that. I’ve done that. But actually, if you wrap it into this. Your core identity, I think that’s that’s quite. Neat I like.
Speaker
It. Thank you.
Judith Germain:
It’s more than purpose because I think sometimes people think, oh, it’s all about my purpose and what my passion is. It’s how that is demonstrated. So it’s kind of hard business. With soft fluffy you you know it’s. It’s it’s, it’s.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, that’s it’s for those. For those who aren’t in the UK watching this, the first thought I had when you said that was the the dime bar advert hard on the inside, soft on the outside. Armadillos or something or other.
Judith Germain:
It’s together that give the full identity.
Chris Simmance:
There’s there’s the hard bit about the business, the soft bit about you and it all kind of encapsulates into something quite, quite, quite cool. So. You mentioned a few. Pillars I know that would come on some of this and there’s some some pieces that that this involves. And I know that there’s it’s not as simple as, you know, watch the webinar and you’ll get it. And hence, you know why you exist in this in this, in this world. And So what does? What does good look like? How does it work and and and? And I guess on the upper opposite end of things, there must be a. It’s almost like a three-way seesaw, isn’t it? If one things too not done at all, but something is really heavily focused on, then maybe there’s a a problem there. So what does good look like then?
Judith Germain:
Good. Looks like you are doing the work that you set your business up to do. In the first place. So we often. Often come out of corporate life with this. This is the. Thing I want. To do and so your digital agency, I want to help people, you know, be more visible and to. Get clients that they want. However, you may end up with clients that you don’t really want because they were the ones that were paying you when you weren’t sure what. Your proposition was. Yeah. So then it becomes like a trap. So your business has you trapped. You’re now working with people you don’t wanna work with at a price point you don’t. Wanna work? You’re just. Not happy, but you can’t. Escape because all your work is coming from referrals. You don’t know how to get out. Of that. So you know, that’s what it’s not looking good. So when it’s looking good, it’s like you are doing something that’s that you remain passion with. So if I said Chris, it’s the only thing you could possibly do is this you. Great. My my work is done. I am happy. Yeah. So when you’re totally aligned so you not only have you got because you can have happy clients that pay a lot of money and you be completely depressed and there’s no point in that. So you want something to be totally and utterly aligned with you and with the clients that you. Want to serve?
Chris Simmance:
Cool. So I guess where it? Fails, then it isn’t always just the start, it’s the consistency around it as well, isn’t it? Because it it can be really easy to. To jump back into something that’s paying well, but it isn’t a fit and. I think I. Think it’s? It’s the same in in all walks of life, in every aspect, personal and professional. If it’s not a fit, it doesn’t feel comfortable. If it doesn’t feel comfortable, you’re not happy and and and please no.
Judith Germain:
Yeah, I think, hey, sorry. People get seduced. Into marketing, so it sounds good. Or they are told find that gap in the market, you know, position yourself in the gap. That’s so 1980 in that gap is you all squished up. It is much better for you to find what you really really want.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Judith Germain:
And to focus what you really really want to do in a way that people will want to buy it. So it’s not just I wanna do this. It’s like, well, how do you fashion that, that passion and and your skill setting to some people wanna buy and then create the tribe around that so that people are fighting it wrong. So it’s about. Pulling rather than pushing.
Chris Simmance:
And that that that reminds me of we had a conversation a couple of weeks ago, you and I. About how, how, what kind of agencies are a perfect fit for you and things like that? And and I remember we kind of both agreed that we’re not by the book as it were and quite a lot of the books say your five peas style type thing and all that sort of stuff. And I think that. When when you say you know people are seduced by marketing, I think you’re right. And the irony is quite a lot of digital agencies, they are great at SEO or PPC or social media and that. Sort of stuff. For other people because they’re following someone else’s strategy, brand tone of voice. And that sort of thing. And the second they try and do it for themselves, they’ll fall back to a blog post or a book or something and forget this core identity. Bit that isn’t just a bit, it’s a lot, and it’s the lot that means that almost all of your marketing. Should fall off of you from that. It should just flow and it isn’t. It isn’t as simple as you know. Tick a box, do an exercise with someone, or read A blog and write a spreadsheet. It’s not that easy.
Judith Germain:
No, I do a lot of work with marketing and PR people and for the exact same reason, because what you’re required when you run your own agency is to come up with your own strategy that meets and is aligned to you. And let’s face it right now, people have money to spend, but they spend it with people that they’re aligned with. You can. Any coach, any agency, you know? But why do you want? What is it about that one that’s special that you want to spend? Your money with.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I I yeah, I think you’re right. Where would you? Where would you typically start though? Let’s say established agency been running quite a while. They have their their roller coaster, the champagne on the way up, the punched in the face on the way down, and they’re kind of getting a bit fed up with. That and they’ve identified. To a degree within, you know within their. Their expertise that there’s that there. And there’s something at the fundamental level around the agency, not what they’re doing. They’re great at what they do, but they lose clients. They find it hard to attract the right people, staff and clients. And where would you start? What would be one of the first things that you would ask?
Judith Germain:
Right back to first principles. What is it that you do? What are the solutions that you’re providing and who are the clients that you want to go for and where you are or where do you want to be in the next next period of time and I think? Because, you know, I’ve worked with a lot of established companies currently 30-40 years old, but they’ve had that drift. So they’re no different from the startup. They’ve forgotten who they are. And so you have to go right back to first principles and discover who that who is. So there’s who the individual and who the business and they’re not the same. They may be some links, but they’re not the same and you need to be very. Which who are we talking to and how do we line them so it? Doesn’t look odd.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I I.
Judith Germain:
We’ve all seen businesses that are really great and then they have a new CEO that just doesn’t seem to gel with the brand of the business. And then you can lose customers just because of that mismatch.
Chris Simmance:
Spot on. I totally agree. I I think the one one part of this is that you kind of the the, the, The Who and The Who are different who’s like you say and let’s say you you’ve identified that you’re really good paid. Advertising for e-commerce brands. OK, so how do you talk to a brand? How do you talk to an e-commerce brand, that’s one who, UM, OK, you you make your messaging and your case studies. Read all about how you help that individual type of niche and things like that, but The Who? That’s actually The Who is the person that you need to talk to to convince of your skill, your services, your. You’re positioning being right, and usually that’s the. Marketing manager or the owner or the the head of and performance or something like that and. And if you don’t know if you’re, if you’re not looking at like who that is that you need to talk to the pains and the problems and the that that they have aren’t going to align with the way that you’re explaining your solutions and your benefits of all of the. Of all of the quality of work that you do, it’s really hard to do that if you don’t ask. And I cannot stand assumptions when it comes to. These things my. Gut says this is this is the. The the the the right way? To do it because it sounds right and like you said about the marketing, it feels like, you know, it sounds right. It must be right. It’s not, it’s. Almost always not.
Judith Germain:
And there’s no depth to it. So if we recognise now that, as the experts. People aren’t coming to us to to explain everything. We are the. Last people they speak to, they’ve gone everywhere else. They’ve come to you and they’re now checking for their own culture fit. Yeah, OK. They’ve pretty much decided before when they’ve come to you. Yeah. So we need to be thinking about how do we interact. With the people and. Where and what is it that they’re really looking for? I mean, I think apples are really good thing, isn’t it? So you think Apple has its brand and then you had Steve Jobs that? Had his own brand and there was a good linkage between the two. Yeah, but Apple didn’t fall when Steve. Because their own business brand was strong. So when Tim Cook took over, yes, he wasn’t Steve Jobs, but it didn’t destroy Apple because while Steve Jobs managed to have his own brand and Apple and keep them aligned. But different, yeah. And that’s what core identity is about.
Chris Simmance:
At brilliant segue onto what we’re going to talk about now, can a marketing position be enough? Like can it is that is that one part of the the process like what’s the minimum level I need to do. I’m a lazy person or put it in a nice way.
Judith Germain:
The absolute the absolute mean.
Chris Simmance:
Put it in a nice way.
Judith Germain:
You want to do.
Chris Simmance:
Go on. Sorry.
Judith Germain:
Is not a marketing proposition because if you think about it, marketing is a surface layer thing. How many times have you gone to somebody who’s giving you? I don’t know. Their 62nd pitch and then you ask questions and there’s nothing else they’ve got to say because they don’t know anything else. They know their pitch and. That’s it. Yeah. When I talk about a business proposition that is, yes, the the final thing is how does it sound? What’s the marketing of this proposition? But the core of it is. Define succinctly what is this business all about? How do you relate to this business? What are the core processes of this business? And when I say process, I’ll give it my so my core processes of my businesses strategize, innovate, execute. So no matter what I do, I’m always what’s the strategy where we’re going, what we’re doing? OK, let’s innovate. Get something new. Let’s do and then look at how do you move to execution? So whether I am training, talking, mentoring, shopping, that’s my thing is so every business, every individual has the same thing. They have a process. Yeah. So you have to define that process, align it to what the business is. And then you look at how you market. And then when people ask you those deep questions, you have all the answers because you’ve done the foundational work. So the very bare minimum you have to do is have a business proposition that is clear, succinct and aligned, and then you can move on to how you demonstrate that and how you say about it.
Chris Simmance:
And and I I’ve. Had this conversation a few times. Agency leaders it it. And how do I get there? How do I start that off? Because I’m spending so much time working on 10 services with 15 staff and 35 clients. Everything needs attention all the time. I always look at it kind of like in a intersecting Venn diagram of what are you really good at that that you that you can deliver like you? What is that? So the six SEO?
Speaker
What do you?
Chris Simmance:
Love doing and then you. Think well, I love. Mountain biking. I love SEO for mountain biking would be quite cool. Can I make money out of it? No. Well, then I’m not gonna. That’s not. That’s not gonna be a core business. Focus is it for. Me and and you work. It’s iterative but you if you start with like a blank slate of like, what is it that? You are good at what you love and what you can get money out of. Then you can pull all of the. Other stuff away. Pretend you’re starting from zero. Because if you’re not, if you’re not kind of mine from a mindset point when. You starting with. Zero. I don’t think you can come. Up with this core identity at all.
Judith Germain:
No. And the good thing for those who are absolutely lazy is I’ve managed to find a way of doing the core identity in 5 1/2 hours. So I’ve been doing it for a long. Time your phone is going to be.
Chris Simmance:
Ringing off the hook in a minute, Jayden.
Judith Germain:
And The thing is, it’s absolutely foundational, because once you have that, that’s where you build the business, the business around and it makes it easier and it makes the sales calls quicker. Because you can say this is what you do. This is how and in that. Yes, that’s a a great process and you build from that. Obviously, you know. Yeah, that’s that’s. The end of. It but in but by the end of that 5 1/2 hours, you absolutely know what? What makes you different. What’s the proposition? Stories that you run? What are you propositions? Cause quite often I find when we look at the business. Opposition is people look at like 1 surface. That they have. And then when you break it down, I can look at it. You know, gosh, you could sell 561020 different things off of this, which is the first one which is the most important right now, which is often is, which is the one that given the quickest. Amount of money. Yeah. OK, we’ll develop that one, but what’s the long term? So you making sure that the long term is going so I think. For me it’s. It’s when I do it looking at core proposition it’s it’s. I might get them to do for homework or the stuff that you were saying, but when we actually get together, it’s very focused on tell me how this was, how how do you do this? Tell so lots of lots of questions and then. From there on, like this seems to be a process and.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, and and and homework is essential. So I I like how you’ve not tied that into the five hours. But I understand exactly where you’re going.
Judith Germain:
Ohh yeah, they have homework to do. When I’m not.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I I mean, I I’m. I’m I I. Love that Bill Gates quote. You know if you need. Something done well. Or hire a lazy person because they’ll find the quick. Way of doing it or? Something along those those lines. And I I I I’d love a a a a shortcut, but I hate I hate taking shortcuts for the sake of you know. Future results, and I think that sometimes some of this stuff, some, some of this stuff. Is so tied to the long term future of. You or the business or both that it’s so kind of hard to unpick what you’ve done if you’ve been running an agency for five years and you’ve got a decent team of nice people, it’s very hard to to to to see. To to to sort of unpick that a little bit into something of meaning, isn’t it?
Judith Germain:
Yeah. And also there’s the. When you’re too close to it, you’re too close to it. But there’s an advantage of an external person that’s worked across a number of industries because you can take great learning from one and apply it to another, and I think that’s what gets missed if you, if you, if you run a business which is tight in one next you know one sector or one niche, you miss the fact that ex. Industry does it this way, so how about taking? A bit of that. And that’s why I think external help is often quicker and more meaningful because there’s no ego tied to it. It’s like you’re genuinely want to partner with this business to get this thing right.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, here come.
Judith Germain:
And I don’t have to worry about it. I’ve been doing this for 20 years and. This is the bit I love.
Chris Simmance:
Exactly. And I think it’s it’s one of those things, again, isn’t it, where a bit of external help is is a different perspective or at least a different tone of voice in the room, which you’re not used to. So it facilitates a different kind of. Kind of uh thinking. And one thing that I we might have a different thought on here is is around personal brand and and you know part of a core identity might might well involve having well it will involve branding it how much of how important in all of that is. And a personal brand in an agency. The reason I ask this and I’m asking this genuinely of you, is that an awful lot of agencies will start because the owner is really good at what they do and they might be really keen on speaking events and all those sorts of things. But what can happen is they then become the business which is really, really bad. Eventually, because you’ve got to be in all the client meetings, you’ve got to be the face of everything and and it’s quite hard to unpick yourself from that. So how important would you say it is to to have?
Judith Germain:
I’m trying not. I’m trying not to say it depends my view my.
Chris Simmance:
Everyone in Laughing knows that they love that term.
Judith Germain:
I think it really what? This is what the dependency on it I think. When you start. And you’re trying to build to the party myself, then it’s really, really important to have a very strong brand of what that means. But then when you’re trying to sell services to that brand, you have to think about how is that going to be sold. Now your personal brand, your reputation, your credibility, the fact that you’re a you’re a public speaker may well be stronger at that point than your business mind. So therefore you will be leveraging and that’s why I think it’s important when you do your bidded proposition, you look at what is the brand of the business and that we based on the business proposition and then part of that core identity, you have your own personal brand and how do you leverage that? Hmm, because you want to if you. Are clear what? Your brand is the business brand and you’re clear of your personal brand as you grow and you hire people, you’re going to be hiring into the business brand. Individuals that can get on and aligned into your own personal culture. So when you know the separation of the two, you’re very clear as to where you want to. And and it’s a bit like, you know, the Maverick paradox and my a personal brand part of my personal brand is the fact that I think differently that’s, you know, and I’m quite challenging and that’s part of Maverick paradox. But I have other people that work for me who aren’t like that, so it’s important to make sure that I’m clear when I’m doing things. Which brand is being leveraged at which point and making sure there’s a there’s a clear identity split.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, yeah. And and and and I guess at some point in time, because you have a plan, you should have a strategy in your agency. You don’t. You should speak to us if you have a plan, that’s when you can start making the right kind of moves from a from a an external perspective to not push, but guide your. Leadership team and your your team into positions where they’re brand they’re they’re brand of the business, is part of their personal brand and you know they go out and speak at events. So they’re part of the marketing materials and things. That and it’s part, you know, you’re you’re not. You’re not running away from the whole thing, but you’re still still part of the the machine. And I think it, you know, it’s a it’s it’s nice to do for your team as well because they’ll feel like they’re they’re loved and. They’re, you know, there’s some some value for them.
Judith Germain:
Because if you think about it, the worst thing you can do is hire an alignment to the personal brand for a business that you want to. Scale. Yeah. Because then as you personally develop. And find new interests. You’ll find that the people that you’ve hired can’t work in your brand because it doesn’t feel the same. And that’s part of the things that happen when people, you know, when people start up and it’s all about the founder, and they hire their first few. Employees and they’re very bounder driven but as it grows, yeah everyone starts saying that culture. It’s different because they’ve waited until it’s grown to develop the culture of the business, when you should be thinking of doing. That at the beginning. Yeah. So that it expands as it grows rather than you’re trying to put it on.
Chris Simmance:
Exactly. I I I had a conversation with a. With an agent. With the with the chap today yesterday. Sorry. Who is moving from a freelance role? He wants to grow that into into an agency model and he was saying what would what, what would you? What? What’s the first step? Sounds like beyond the. And normal things like insurance and stuff like. That and awful lot of things to to consider for three years in the. Future if you’re not thinking way, way further than you know, getting your domain name and your website and call your business name you you you’re gonna miss something and it will ultimately hurt you. And I think you’re you’re you bang on there with, you know, if you prepare the the beginnings of your business with a view of the future. From a culture point of view, where? Do we want to be? What are we? Who are we? It makes it a lot easier as the business grows, like you say. You might. You might get married, or you might have children or. You might have more. Time away. You might get new hobbies.
Judith Germain:
We might have a pandemic that completely shifts. Our business model.
Chris Simmance:
Exactly. Yeah, maybe that will happen. Hopefully never again. But you know, maybe. But I I think I think all of those things, they if you’ve built the culture first, it shouldn’t change because usually usually an agency’s culture is is relatively closely tied, we say to. You to your the values that you set or have early doors and and the and the the the kind of the core purpose of the business shouldn’t really change and that unless you fundamentally change as a person, it’s very hard for that to happen.
Judith Germain:
Yeah, because there’s gonna be a time when. You’re gonna wanna walk away from the busy. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to sell the business. It might be that you have other interests now and you want to maybe do another company or you or or what you’re doing in your agency. There’s one particular bit you love the most, so that’s what you know. It’s not unusual to see the CEO becomes the CEO with the new CEO because they want to do this division or this thing in particular. You have to be careful of where you take the ties and I think when people are talking about strategy, I think they think of an old corporate model like 10 years out tonnes of. Paper and I’m makes really simple. Where do you want to be? Where do you want to go? What’s key to get there? Fine, because now we know where we’re going. And then you can. Go back to. Tactical stuff. Yeah. And that allows you to move. To strategy where you need to.
Chris Simmance:
It it’s it’s. It’s amazing how little people have progressed beyond. It’s all of it’s all these books, mate people writing all these books and they’re saying all these words that that are very much regurgitated versions of the same thing if you’ve got. If you’re looking at 10 year 10 year strategy, fine, if you’ve got, if you’re. If you’re a massive, massive business and you’ve got thousands of shareholders who all demand their pound of flesh every year, you need to produce lots and lots of paper to prove or suggest where you’re going, because that’s what they need. But that’s not what really is needed when you’re looking at agencies. And and and smaller service businesses you need to go. I personally want to have £100,000 a year post tax income. I want to have three holidays a year abroad without taking my. Laptop I want to be able to go to industry events and because I’ve had a massive ego be recognised and then you go OK well, in order to do that professionally I need to be this, this and this and and that then is, you know, two or three years down the line and it’s not loads of paper that’s that’s a vision. That’s where I want to be. And then the the gap. Between where you are now. And where you want to go is the the the core tenants of your strategy and like you say, everything else then becomes very tactical, but the the core identity piece should be something that doesn’t change, shouldn’t change.
Judith Germain:
No, because when you’re when you’re working it out, you’re already factoring where you think that you may be going and everything. Is is an? And and an evolutionary step, I think. And I think that’s the bit that’s missed. It’s not because. If you have a business that doesn’t develop, nurture and grow, then it’s dead anyway, so you’re going to expect it to move and grow anyway, and things will change. But the point is, once you’ve done the the process, if there’s any massive revolutionary changes, you just redo it. You know, it’s a bit like. Going having a child, getting them to the school age at 5 and going parenting’s done now.
Chris Simmance:
Yes, school school can. Well, I mean that that does typically happen in the UK at the minute. I’m afraid parenting is done now. The teachers will parent you until you’re 16.
Judith Germain:
So you you come back and you go, oh, let’s nudge here and give more flexibility here. And of course you’ll do. That, and I think that’s only natural, but what’s key is being able to. I always work with. I work people and even myself and I changes I look at. Retrofitting in a way so that. When you’re moving into that new direction, how different is it? What’s the story between the new direction, the old direction? Because you want there to be a story of some type so that people can follow you so they don’t have a huge shock and go, Oh my gosh, you’re completely over there. They go. Ohh. This is why we’re this at this point. I can see why you’re moving to this place.
Chris Simmance:
Something just occurred to me. If. If you’re uhm, buying an agency, or you’ve been bought by another agency. And there’s essentially 2 identities at that point, but they are going to be eventually 11 entity. What would? How would you like I I know that it’s in it’s depends answer in many senses cause you don’t know who is buying whom and things like that. But is there is there anything kind? Of from a. Like a logical point of view that would make sense to start that process off because the last thing you wanna do is be be a schizophrenic Frankenstein identity monster.
Judith Germain:
Yeah, I do a load of this lots. Of this culture change. Stuff back to first principles. What is the purpose of this entity? Because that’s back to the strategy, yeah. Why did we get to where we are? What do we want this thing to do? Where do we want to be? Who are the types of people? What you know, go right back to the the why’s and the what’s once we understand those hard measures. Then it’s all about behaviour change. So then you’re putting together interventions and designing in behavioural change. Hmm, because you want. Because nothing’s gonna happen until people behave differently. You can’t change an attitude. It’s impossible. I can’t make you change your attitude, but I can make you change your behaviour. And when you change your behaviour, you will change your attitude yourself. I won’t need to do that. Your behaviour, you know you’ll have complete dissonance and you’ll you’ll move to. Another behavioural thing so. And back to the strategy, what’s the point? The innovation comes around, how do we do the behavioural change that we want and then you execute it and embed it in. So that may mean a change of policies that may mean change of working. It will certainly mean the top team will need to go through their own collective impact process to have a look, to see how they’re going to. Role model. This change moving forward.
Chris Simmance:
So the the the team bit interests me. A little bit because. In in a different in a, in a different scenario, you’re you’re, you know, you’re a couple of years into your agency, say three to five years in, you’ve just kind of got to the point where, Oh my gosh, we don’t really have a core identity. We need to now go back to that first principles thing, and I’ve seen this happen before and I know that it’s, I know that it’s not the right thing to do. The the agency leader will, with all good faith, go as best they can to to. To to to. To get as much of this done as possible. It will, to all intents and purposes, be spot on the money. Perfect. Everything done exactly how it needs to be done in terms of the outcomes that they read. While it looks great, it does tick the right boxes. Then they go and they get their big PowerPoint presentation and they just reveal it to the business and they say this is what we are. This is who we are. How involved do you think the the the entire business needs to be? Or well, they’re saying that an agency of the, you know, 15 to 20 people, how how, how involved should everyone be in these sorts of things?
Judith Germain:
I think it depends. I think it I think it. The determinant factor is what is the current culture of the organisation. So if it’s a culture where everything. ‘S always discussed. And you want to move it. You can’t go with. This is the new thing. But what you might not want to do is have. You might want to have a small number of people that you consult with. So let’s let’s assume sorry, let’s just go about this. This is my HR hat on. Let’s assume there’s no restructuring or anything. Like that. This is just a. Simple change so there’s. None of that. So then you’d have a small group of people that you would actually discuss and talk with. Then you’d come up with the plan or this is what it should be, and then you could have. Awareness type meetings a change is coming. This is the type of thing we’re thinking about. So that they so there. So there is discussion not consultation, but there’s discussion about change and what you would look like and then you make the change and depending on the maturity of the organisation will determine whether you need to do any sort of training or solicitation. So if there’s like a lot of. Bad will or people not like to change. You probably want to do some very targeted. Interventions there, whether that’s facilitated workshop with somebody outside the company or something like that to go through. So I think the determinant is what culture do you have already? Yeah, because it might well be a culture where they go great. And they’ll just go. Let’s just. Do it or it might be like, no, I’m not. Happy about that. And in this case you’ll have to do more. Make the behaviour change.
Chris Simmance:
We we we did a A the the Council of the first principal stuff a few weeks ago. A few days ago with a with an agency leader and it was quite funny at the end of it he was not disappointed isn’t the right word. He was. Kind of. Not he. He was unhappy that there weren’t any surprises that at the end of this session with the team and talking all about like who we are and what and and what, you know all of the key sort of beginning pieces of like what are we as a business and he was. He was unhappy in a sense not. Not in a bad way, but he was hoping that. There would be some. Curveballs or there’d be some dissent or some disagreement, but actually it just turns out that he’s already got really good people who are very aligned, and they’re all they. Essentially, they spent 2 1/2 hours in the morning and 2 1/2 hours in the afternoon to essentially be able to write down who they are because it existed. Already and I thought it was wonderful because you know now they’ve got words to put to concepts and feelings that they implicitly had, but and it and I think that’s great because, you know, they can walk that people can walk through the door for, for interviews now and they can all say the same kind of same kind of thing and same with elevator pitches. Networking events and all sorts of things like that, but sometimes sometimes you’ve done it by.
Judith Germain:
Excellent. Yeah. And great leaders will will have done it, probably not by accident, but they might not have it might not have felt like they’ve put. A lot of. Effort into it. Because it’s quite natural cause for, you know, in the parties to come in to turn around department and those kind of things felt quite easy and natural to do. Because that’s that’s. You know, that’s what I do. Yeah, but it’s not necessarily easy. Natural for everybody. So I think sometimes it feels like an accident when they’ve actually been doing it quite intentionally. But it was an easy task for them to do.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, agreed. And and. And great leaders are not robots, are they? Because we’re going. To talk about AI. So once just very clearly on the AI thing for an agency point of view, my line in the sand here at the minute, it’s a great tool. Use it as much as you can without destroying the value of the work that you can do. Don’t rely on it to be a human being because they do not have empathy. And so don’t, please don’t use it to automate conversations with clients and things. I’m just saying that because I keep having this conversation, but from an identity point of view, I I I.
Speaker
I I what do?
Chris Simmance:
You. How do you feel AI is making a a an impact here because. It feels like we have to be a bit. More human. Now prove it kind of thing.
Judith Germain:
Yeah, there there have been influencers who have been tasked to prove that they’re real because there’s because they appear to be more robotic, more AI, and of course.
Chris Simmance:
They get a little box, they have just click the tick.
Judith Germain:
And of course, there’s AI. Influencers as well, with millions of followers. So I can understand. That I think if you think about. TikTok videos. And in each individual, Vijay looks pretty good. Great dance. But they’re kind of mere cause, even though they’re uniquely different. There are so many that it feels it’s the same. So cognitively, they are different and you. Can see the. Different, but they feel the same. If they’re all that you know, all the movements are in a certain position. And there’s no innovation. So what they might have different moves on innovation and. You know, as I said before, I’ve got a magazine and sometimes people send me a I written articles and you can tell and they’re they’re they’re technically good, but they’re uninteresting to read. And I think that’s the same with agencies. And I think additional agencies and in fact many freelance or agency type, you know similar agencies. To be more human is to to be able to survive, because I think there’ll be a backlash of, you know, people are getting fed up of, people will get fed up of generic content that doesn’t really. So it’s I guess it will persuade and you’ll get the clips and you’ll get the SEO and all that. But. He leaves that the reader feeling empty, like there’s just something missing and I don’t know. What it is? I just.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, you can certainly. Tell the difference like I, I’ve I’ve spent. I’ve spent a long time on chat. GPT for example. Just playing with it and seeing how far it can go and things like that. And if you have one prompt which just says write A blog article about core identity, it will write one. And it will read well and it will read fine, but you’re it’s not told you anything. You didn’t kind of already know because it’s just logically written predicted words. Then if you have. A different prompt. That’s like, here’s the business’s tone of voice. And here’s some examples. Of the owner transcribed content from videos and here’s some emails they’ve written and things like that. It’s still predicted words in a pattern, but using someone else’s tone of voice choice of words is different. It’s just like the same articles been put through a thesaurus. You you can’t. Empirically tell which ones which usually but, but they’re like you said, there’s there’s something missing still.
Judith Germain:
Yeah, it feels kind of soulless. Hmm. But I think more importantly for the agency is. Will people spend money? On what you can offer and the brilliance that you have, if they believe that a chat bot with the relative plugins can do it better, and this is where the identity, the core identity stuff is so important. Yeah. Because if you. Because otherwise it’s a rush to the cheapest price. Yeah, it’s.
Chris Simmance:
It’s it’s, it’s all of the bad things that will happen the the, I, I I I feel bad for juniors in these sorts of businesses at the. Minute. Who are? Essentially competing for jobs against robots as much as they don’t think they might well be. Right now, they’re getting more sophisticated to the point where a junior’s role is is at risk, and that’s that’s that’s the future of the industry. That’s the future of agencies. That’s the future of of workforce. And if you take them out of the knees from an opportunity to. To to to have a have a the experience to be great. Then you’re going to have no culture in your agency eventually, and it will be an AI.
Judith Germain:
Yeah, and I think depends on what you’re really wants to be and if you want to be something that. Is a cheap offering that produces generic work then. That’s fine. You’ll you’ll make money doing that.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, pets who want to.
Judith Germain:
You’ll be hardly fined.
Chris Simmance:
There’s plenty of people who want to spend very little money and have generic work done, you know.
Judith Germain:
Yeah, but your ability to get the slice of the generic stuff becomes harder. Anyway, because if you’ve got the AI plugins that does their own SEO for example, and they can tweet out what they’ve done and all the rest of it, and that’s only what? Three months in from the last innovation. You know, get TB was only in November of last.
Chris Simmance:
Year say no, it’s gone mental. It’s already gone too quickly. I’m trying. I’m I’m. I’m looking at it every day and I’m struggling to keep up. I don’t know how anyone else is.
Judith Germain:
Supposed to so if everybody, if anybody with no experience, can be an SEO. Person then, even if you want to produce generic stuff, even that becomes harder. How low are you going to get a penny? Per post you know, so if so, even in that market, you need to stand out. And be different, yeah. And for the juniors, they need to look at their own core identity so that they may be employed, but they will have to have a side hustle so that when they so they will get promoted and get employed elsewhere because when you look for them, they stand out. That’s something better than AI already.
Chris Simmance:
Totally agree, totally agree and I and and I think there’s no point in going through any of this exercise of finding your core identity if it’s just going to be a marketing exercise for robots to do the work. I I welcome my. I welcome my future overlords. And if you are transcribing this in the future. And then you, you know, don’t come for me to come for the other guys, but there’s there’s there’s no empathy in a business like that. And businesses without that, just there, there, there’s a there’s like, well, like, the content, there’s no soul.
Judith Germain:
And also I suppose we have to think about it and I don’t really spend much time thinking about it. What will Generation Z buy? So right now, they’re certainly into the influencers, the personalised output. When they get older. Will they be buying generic AI or will they want to feel some sort of connexion? So you think about like there’s that hotel in in Japan that she’s completely done by robots and AI and you never meet a human. So you cheque into. Robot you know? Chamber maid isn’t a human, and all the rest of it. And apparently people love the first couple of days, but after that, they’re dying to meet a person. I don’t know. So.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, that sounds awful. Not for me. No. OK, well, I’m not gonna go to that hotel in Japan, but yeah, no, I I, I it’s pretty pretty horrendous, actually. Thank you very much Judith for this. It’s been fantastic. Anyone who has any questions about Judith, 5 hour. Core Identity Workshop give us a shout. We’ll put you in touch and I can very much. Tell just from this webinar how much you’d like kind of live and breathe this because every single time. I talk to. You you’re the same person should. We say, which is great. The authenticity is right, but the algorithm that you’ve built for your core identity is correct. So beep boop beep. Thank you very much for not being a robot.
Judith Germain:
Judith, thanks for having me on again.
Chris Simmance:
And and look forward to speaking with you very soon. Enjoy the rest of your day. Everybody replays are available across the whole of the web.