Transcript
Chris Simmance:
Hello. Hello. Hello. How are you doing, guys?
Tazmin Suleman:
I was gonna.
Gareth Hoyle:
I was. I was gonna get ladies go first.
Tazmin Suleman:
And I saw you about to speak, so I thought I let you finish. I’m really well, really well, thank. You. How are you?
Gareth Hoyle:
I am rocking, to be honest. I’m off work tomorrow because it’s a long weekend. I’m off into Manchester as soon as we finish this and I’m going to see mob deep tonight. If anyone remembers the one of the greatest 90s hip hop albums that was released in 1995. So yeah, I’m. I’m in a good place at the moment.
Chris Simmance:
Nice. What is the thing mob deep?
Gareth Hoyle:
Mob deep. So, Chris, you were obviously not cool enough to to know you.
Chris Simmance:
No, I mean. That that should be a given mate.
Gareth Hoyle:
Well, I suggest you look up there.
Tazmin Suleman:
I’ve never heard of them.
Gareth Hoyle:
Well, I mean, what sort of audience am I speaking with today? Hopefully all of our listeners will know exactly who they are and I suggest that you look up the 1995 album, the infamous, which I think you’ll find is one of the key defining albums of East Coast. 90s hip hop.
Chris Simmance:
Sounds fantastic. I’ll definitely look it. Up. So we’re live on Facebook, we’re live on LinkedIn, we’re live on YouTube and on Twitter. So if you’ve got any questions throughout, ping them to us and we’ll try and get through to them. If we don’t, you can get in touch with Gareth almost everywhere you can get in touch with Tasman almost everywhere. Sophie Brennan says she wasn’t even born at the time that that that album came out. So, you know, the comments section works, which is fantastic. Today, we’re gonna talk about something that I think is absolutely, massively important in the world, not just digital agencies, but that’s who we’re here to talk to. Hopefully the whole world doesn’t come on the stream. I’m not sure it can. Take take it. It’s a big thing that’s very close to. Hopefully Gareth and Jasmine’s heart. Otherwise you know we’ve got the wrong people in the room, but definitely no, I we haven’t Tasman. You just did, you just come back off of Brighton SEO. And you did a few things. You wanna talk about that before we kick off? Because I think it’s really, really cool what you did the other.
Speaker
Tazmin Suleman:
No, you know what it was? It was a last minute decision to do it. And what was really great was it happened so smoothly and everyone we spoke to about it was so accommodating. So it’s not just us who had the idea it it it brought, it was brought in by lots of people, so we did. The podcast live podcast before Brighton this year on a Wednesday night where we dealt with dealing with anxiety at conferences, gave, you know, our stories and tips. Listen to the people in the audience, they were really engaged, which was wonderful and people left. With strategies, ideas to help brighten be that little bit nicer for them personally. I mean, everything is great about Brighton, but it can be overwhelming. And then and then on Thursday and Friday, I did a a mindfulness session on each of those. Days again, reassuring everyone in the audience that it’s normal to feel anxious. It’s not that they’re broken or something’s wrong with them. It’s absolutely, absolutely correct that they would be feeling anxious in that situations and again we did a little bit of guided meditation and some strategies to help them. With the rest of the day. So that was really well received and a lot of fun.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I know. I’ve seen some great feedback since I really you know, it’s it’s really good. Like I said, it’s a really important thing to. To keep it. Keep front of mind as best as possible, I know. Gareth, it’s a big thing for you at marketing signals and in general as well. And what what do you do? Do you do mindfulness at work? What? What? What happens? What’s the? What’s the? How do you bring that into? Your culture and the agency.
Gareth Hoyle:
Yeah, they’re obviously we’re fully remote, so trying to maintain that culture and the mindfulness is, is even more of a challenge. When we were in the office, we used to have the yoga instructors come in and we do just lunchtime yoga and just all just stop like they’re again. When we were in the office. They used to demand that people take a lunch. Like, just stop for a bit. Guys also don’t ring your phone, just just play a board. Game have a. Chat. Read a book like, just try and try and log off a bit in terms of of now we’re now we’re fully remote. What we’re doing to try and just keep that mindfulness up. Yeah. So we give everyone subscriptions for stuff like calm just to just to try and. Just get them out of the up the zone. We I share a lot of stuff on our company slack. I’m a big believer in something called Soma breathing, which is all to do with just trying to clear your mind. Really it’s. Maybe I’m I’m I’m veering towards being an old hippie these days, but I just believe that that life isn’t just for working, if I’m honest. So I mean specifically marking marketing signals, we do a four day week we we’re overtime is banned. So you know there there are just a few little. Life life changes that I believe that we can make as employers that will just massively benefit the team who may be not confident enough to challenge the leadership on things that should change mentally. Or maybe they feel like they’re. We’re unapproachable. I’d like to think my team don’t feel that I’m unapproachable, but you never know. Nice to see that Jerry is not commenting on my old hippie comment. Cheeky ****** me. Yeah, there’s, there’s we. I’m not saying we’ve got it right at marketing signals, but we’re certainly trying and I think that. Even if as a leader, if we can just keep mental health at the forefront of our feelings towards our employees and having a little bit of empathy to. Odds, individual circumstances. I think that probably puts you ahead of 50% of agency. Owners out there.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah. So before we kick off and get back, get into this in, in, in full mode. Just a reminder, if you’ve got any questions, any comments you want to add, then feel free to put it in there and we’ll try and stick them on the screen just like Jerry there. So everyone can see what Jerry looks like for later and and. And and let’s kick off. So the first thing I’ve got a question for you guys because and I’m I’m not sure what where to even come at this from an A what the answer would be. What does good look like now? We say it a lot in agencies when it comes to deliverables like good looks like this. Here’s a template for that. But what other signs of like good or sadly, sometimes poor mental health at work? What is it that? As a leader or a manager, you should be kind of looking for in your teams. So kick off with Tasman.
Tazmin Suleman:
So I’m going to like the specifics, but just in a general way and that you know, what does good look like for yourself, imagine yourself. On a paddle. In order to be able to stay straight on a paddle board, you need that inner strength and you need to be moving forward so there will be waves. There will be lumps. There’ll be bumps along your path, but you’re able to cope no matter what comes at you and what what coping looks like is when there is a challenge. You can remain calm and still when there is a challenge. You can regulate your emotions and and park your emotions. Absolutely. Take the signs from them because they’re there to tell you something. But let’s park them. And what’s a good outcome from this situation? This, this can translate in work. This can translate into relationships in in anything. Perhaps not so good. Looks like is when you have those challenges you might get teary. You might become angry, you lose control of your situations, you lose control of yourself, you lose sight of that moment. That moment suddenly is lost, and the the that inner turmoil. Less dramatised ways of what not good looks like is you become inflexible. You don’t want to do the thing that is requiring change in yourself because you want to stay where it’s safe. Your very reactive. Rather than being proactive, you’re not responding, you’re just snap decision. Means reflex actions that those sorts of things.
Chris Simmance:
And I I know for me, I typically before it gets before things get too much overwhelming. For me it’s a sure sign is I’ve read I read an e-mail about 18 times and still don’t understand it. And that’s usually when something’s there’s too much going on and I need to step away and take a break.
Gareth Hoyle:
What? What, what?
Chris Simmance:
What about you, Gareth? What? What is it? That kind of. What does good look like when you’re thinking about cause you’re in the at the coal face, as it were, as the agency leader? What what? Do you look for what’s good? What’s?
Gareth Hoyle:
Yeah, I mean the I had quite a visual face. And so if if I see that my my team are smiling back at me, it’s usually a good indication that they’re they’re not overwhelmed. And I think that that one of the one of the key words that we’re gonna be using quite a lot in today’s discussion is the word overwhelmed. The IT is non-stop what we do. It is performance marketing in its very nature is always on, always under pressure. Yeah, always that, that desire to perform because we all want to prove well, most of us want to progress. With our careers. And in what we do. It is just it rains pressure down on you and if if you’ve got a. If your leadership. Team don’t fully understand the the mechanics of how to do the role, then they’re not going to have any empathy towards towards how you’re feeling. I also think that if I see that my team are having good interpersonal relationships with each other, that’s usually a good sign for me that they’re in a good place. There. Now obviously we are the most extroverted introverts in the world of performance marketers. So at the same time, we need to talk to each other, and if you see somebody going into their shell, that’s quite often a sign that they’re just not in a good place mentally. I mean it’s it’s. Stress Awareness Month in April, so it was quite timely that we’re that we’re doing this today and and stress is is a massive factor to poor mental health. And if you are. So short sighted kind of building on what what Tasman said that you’re just running at tasks without thinking about them. Whereas I and I saw a good friend of mine who I respect most of the stuff she says. Kirsty Hulse, said that in a training session she was doing earlier this week, she got the team to just. Stop and stare. 10 minutes and you know what? Just close your mind. Put your phone in in. Do not disturb and just think. Yeah, for 10 minutes. Or don’t think. Just just just turn your brain off. And I think that that if you don’t, if you feel you haven’t got the ability or the capacity in your working day to take 10 minutes out to just reset some of your. Mental Connexions then. Then you’re in a bad place and and that bad place is gonna lead to to bad mental health.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, it’s the, it’s the. You haven’t got the time. It’s usually an excuse because there is definitely the time, but that’s a. I’d say that you’re probably if you’re saying to yourself, you don’t have the time for that, you’re probably creating a bit of a an an argument internally to why you shouldn’t help yourself. You you probably know the answer already that you should be doing something and and and like you say, performance marketing at its heart at its core. If you say I’ve got to stop for a. In it you also seeing other people racing past you in your head which which can make it hard to admit that you need a break. And I think being able to foster a culture where you’re able to admit that, and I need a break or you need a break or not not as aggressive way as I just put it hopefully. But you need a break as much as I need a break. Everyone to take a break and stare for a minute, go for a walk, leave your phone at your desk and. But that it’s really hard for people to admit that they want, or that they need.
Gareth Hoyle:
I think that leaders should. Recognise that though? Sorry cousin, I think good leaders should be recognising that. Like if I I can see that if my team are coming on calls and they’re they, they’re they’re yawning more than often, you know, like we’re all. We’re all tired at some point, but if they’re not engaging in the same way that they used to. Right there. It’s. It’s our job as leaders to try and to try and notice these things and almost preempt them and and try and put things in place that will hopefully, yeah remotivate the team and you. It could be something nothing to do with work. Let’s never discount that. Everybody has a life, you know, work in my eyes. Work should be 20 to 25% of your life that leave. Yeah, 75 to 80% of other dramas that can potentially encroach on your working life. Then again, speaking to each other and and trying to work together. As a team. Is is how we and I mean anxiety is a big thing amongst our cohort and if you’re anxious about performing, then you’re going to lose self-confidence and self belief and it just all snowballs into into into camera off is what it snowballed to. Camera off. Not engaging. There’s something wrong there and I say I just believe it’s down to us as as agency leaders to to try and pick up on that and ideally have have things that we put into place that prevent. That but at the same time, as I say for me, for me and my team, work is 2020. 5% of our. Lives. There’s the bulk of people’s life is outside of work, so you can’t control everything.
Chris Simmance:
And and what? What were what? Were you gonna add there tasmin before Gareth Gareth?
Tazmin Suleman:
And you were saying about those people who say they don’t have time, can’t admit actually, those people who say I don’t have time are the ones who really need it. They, they and. When we say that anxiousness erodes self-confidence and self esteem, it’s the other. It’s the other way around. It’s the self esteem that needs building up in order to help the anxiousness. So quite often we’re dealing with talking about the symptoms, but we don’t often go down to the root cause. Spending time thinking about nothing is great for productivity. It’s great for happiness, which also then leads into productivity. It’s great for creativity. It’s it’s helpful for so many things. So that’s 20 minutes. Thirty minutes. Whatever it is that you spend in the morning, ideally in the morning. Calming your mind down? Getting yourself ready for the day will reap dividends throughout the day.
Tazmin Suleman:
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Chris Simmance:
I agree completely. And what do you think, though? Like, what cause can cause mental health issues from a work point of view, but also in general life? Like you say, it’s not all about work and. I I feel. Like and and an analogy that I often. I have in my head is quite a lot of things, can often boil down to a certain level of resilience, and some people have lots kind of naturally. Some people that have very much naturally. And it’s just a I look at it as like batteries. So some batteries discharge quickly and charge quickly. Some take a long time to discharge, but when they do, it takes a really long time to to recharge. And I think if you’re hit with a lot of problems, like work stuff, life stuff, things like that, it can. It can chip away. But. What are the? What are the key kind of drivers that you you guys notice when you speak to people about these sorts of things?
Gareth Hoyle:
I’ll let you take it first husband.
Tazmin Suleman:
So you know, we we shouldn’t forget that there will be some elements that are beyond life stuff. There’ll be genetic genetic elements, there’ll be environmental elements. The culture that the person has grown up in, the environment that they’ve grown up in and. You know, there’s only so much as a non professional you can do in those situations. The best thing you can do in those situations is if you are in a conversation with somebody is to direct them to their GP. So we’re not there to fix everything and we’re not trained to fix everything, but the other stuff, you know, bereavement relationship breakdowns, a lot of it like Gary said, will be outside work moving house. So stressful. And there’ll be a whole raft of life events. And although you said a lot, some people are naturally resilient, there isn’t. There is space to cultivate mindset. So for people to take ownership, for people to feel that they are responsible and to take a step back and say OK, what can I do right now? And often we can’t do anything. The situation has already happened and be OK with that, that we can’t do anything else in in you know. If you’re moving, you’re. Moving and only deal with the things that you can control. So again mindset is something that I would be very happy if more people were talking about it. More people were helping their workforce learn about it, but. I mean, you know what causes mental health issues? It’ll be those rafts of experiences that isn’t every day going to a conference isn’t your everyday thing. Being part of a, you know, project launch isn’t an everyday thing.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah. And and. What? What are your thoughts there, Gareth? Cause I I I. Know, like. As Tasman said, some stuff you there’s a genetic predisposition in certain senses, but if we if we come at this in a sense from the the, the, the agency lifestyle as opposed to things you might be predisposed to. That’s really hard to to to to sort of prevent should we say, but in a from an agency point of view, what can what you’ve been there, you’ve had bad clients, you’ve had bad staff, you’ve had bad managers, what what do those things take a toll on people and how’s it kind of work?
Gareth Hoyle:
Yeah, I mean the I think of resilience as like an elastic band eventually is going to lose some of its elasticity and you become less. Resilient and you know we’ve we’ve seen it over the last 15 years that that we’ve been working in this industry that some people just give up and it is that, that expectation to be. Always be on always performing the. Like you get an e-mail at 6:00 AM. It’s almost like somebody expects you to respond at six. 05 and and yeah. And it’s that’s just not healthy. I think some of the things and diet and lifestyle like we’re all laptop people, we’re all I sit down here in my rave cave and sometimes.
Chris Simmance:
Brave cave. Love it.
Gareth Hoyle:
Sometimes I only go upstairs to make a cup of tea. Or get a drink of water. And just getting some getting out having. A bit of fresh. Air like the I’ve started doing a fake commute. So there’s a mile walk outside my house that takes me through a nice park, brings me up past the nice coffee shop. So it’s all. Although I work from home, it’s like I start the day by going to work and it’s just that that mental trigger. That works for me. That then puts me out of the home to work. Minds that and and I I totally agree with Tasman, it it it, it is mindset and only you can control your own mindset. I can try and influence my employees and my peers and my friends mindsets. But if they’re. In the dark, dark place, as we all end up at at some point or other in our life, all you can do is try and support them and and you know, life is full of dramas like the if I I could list you off 10 dramas I’ve had in the last couple of years, but I won’t. I won’t bother. I think there’s also. We’ve got to take into effect maybe macro factors like the the tech industry is suffering a lot of redundancies and and layoffs at the moment and it might.
Chris Simmance:
Was a concern around.
Gareth Hoyle:
It might not even be to do with your digital agency, but if you’re going online and you’re seeing Google have have laid off 10,000 people, Facebook better could have laid off 15,000 people. It’s like bloody hell. Like, you know, these are the. These are the people behind the platforms. Yeah. So what’s gonna happen to those of us that work on the platforms? Are we also gonna see a drop? There’s a cost of living crisis. We’re in recession, marketing budgets are being cut left, right and centre. What does that mean for me? What does it mean for my business? What does it?
Tazmin Suleman:
Mean for my staff. Yeah, there’s just it’s it’s, it’s, it’s.
Gareth Hoyle:
Overwhelming is what it is and.
Speaker
It it it it is.
Chris Simmance:
And that word again about being overwhelmed and things and it it it I I think. As a as an agency leader, you can you can accidentally overwhelm people more by presenting this kind of foe strength that that isn’t necessary, and you do need to sort of show something that that should be followed as a leader. But when you’re when, when there’s uncertainties and things like that, it’s it’s kind of your job to provide. And some some clarity where you can honesty transparency. If you’ve got a really honest and transparent team, no, you aren’t going to tell them that you’re worried about the bills in six months time. But you’re gonna tell. And these things are happening. These are the plans that we’re taking. I’m thinking about this in advance because I’m thinking about making sure that we’re we’re all OK. So we don’t need to worry. That’s why we’re doing it this way. And I think if you can own like the the opportunity to sort of drive a bit of a narrative internally. That that, those things that are out of your control are somewhat more present in in the mind. Then it can can kind of mean that the. Will that work for you? Aren’t thinking wow. He seems to be really comfortable with his with everything right now, whilst Facebook laying off a lot of people. Or is is it? Should I be thinking about? Looking elsewhere or? Should I learn? How to crochet and start doing some other job online or something. I think you know the the the converse aspect of that is you do just you come across a little bit. You can come across a bit arrogant in our we’re fine. We’ve got 10 new clients this month and and add pressure on that way and that if you don’t perform then we’re not fine potentially.
Gareth Hoyle:
Well, I think it’s also it’s OK to not be OK. And and it’s OK to seek support and it’s OK to tell your boss. I just needed a couple of days out here like I’m. I’m. I’m I’m. I’m my my my mind is blown and if if it’s if you’re a good leader and you’re working or you’re working for a good leader or a good agency.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, it really is.
Gareth Hoyle:
They they will, they will. They will be grateful for the fact that you, that you’re comfortable enough to open up to them and the the reward, maybe reward is. The wrong word. The reward for you having the the confidence to come and and and approach someone about the the mental health issues you’re having. We have a budget to help you resolve them and it’s in my interest, you know, put my selfish businessman head on business person, head on. It’s in my interest to get your brain working properly again. Therefore, you know the think about the cost of replacing someone that leaves due to burnout or anxiety or mental health. Like I would much rather provide access to therapy. I would much rather send you to. Barcelona for 48 hours to go and sit on a beach and sit, cocktails or iced tea, depending on your preference. Yeah, and just not think about work for a couple of days.
Chris Simmance:
So I’ve got a question and tasmin I want you to answer it first. So the vast majority of agencies are much smaller than marketing signals. They’re much smaller. They’re the the rump of most agencies around are sort of between 3:00 and 10:00 staff. Or less on in many senses. For the most part, they have less than, say, three months of revenue in the bank for any risks and any problems. Obviously they’re always running on a razor edge equally. They usually from a capacity point of view, push the team as best as possible. What advice do you have for those leaders when they’re trying to think about? Well, I’m listening to what Gareth just said about offering them the time or the budget or the the opportunity to use resources and take time away. What would you, what would you advise the leader does if they’re thinking, well, I can’t afford that. What? What, what? What can they do instead? Or how can they maybe work towards that kind of state?
Tazmin Suleman:
OK, I’ll answer that for that individual and also for individuals in their own capacity that have no budget like they are somebody like me, somebody like like anybody there is, you know, good mental health and breakdown to the point where you need therapy. But there is. A big raft of space in between. There are so many books online that you can get to help you build up your mindset, and this you were saying about resilience can loses its elasticity. At the same time, resilience can also be drip fed into. I’m gonna sound. A bit like Gareth did a little while ago as the. Old yippee and and this is. This is something that has become part of my life later in my life because I dismissed it for. Many, many years. So I would hear about the practise of gratitude. I’m going. What nonsense is this? However, it is now part of the thing that I do first thing in the morning. I open my eyes and I am grateful that I have another day with my family. Fling my legs over onto the floor and I’m grateful that I have carpet under my feet. I am grateful that I am in a. Bedroom I walk to the bathroom and grateful that it’s actually in the inside bathroom, I turn the tap on and I’m grateful. The fact that I have warm running water. Now, some of this may sound woo, but what it does is that it grounds me. It reminds me that even though I may be, you know, an agency owner that has very little money to to keep themselves going, but it still grants you that you are probably in the top. I’m not. I’m no. I’m gonna make it up now. 10% of the world. And although that doesn’t pay the bills, it does put you in a stronger place to deal with the challenges that you have that day. Chris, you know I said this in the talk when we first met, I brushed my teeth and I’m grateful. I have my own teeth.
Speaker
That’s very true, I mean.
Tazmin Suleman:
And you know.
Chris Simmance:
Those who have all their own teeth. You should all be grateful of. That as well right now.
Tazmin Suleman:
Yes and yes. And one day I will probably be grateful for the fact that there are things like implants and benches. Because that that isn’t available for.
Chris Simmance:
Aaron agrees with you on the teeth. I think more than any of the points you’ve made, everything else he’s ambivalent about with the teeth bit, I think he’s very keen on.
Tazmin Suleman:
So this morning I’ve got a few things to do in the next few days that are causing me overwhelm, but then I also have to remind myself that I’m grateful for the tasks that I have available to me that are causing me that overwhelm. Because it’s work, they didn’t have that work. I’d be saying. I wish I had more work. When I’ve got more work, I’m thinking. Ohh no, I’m overwhelmed. I’ve actually got what I wanted. But now it’s dealing with it. Yeah. So again, going back to mindset, this ability to reframe your situations, it is really hard when you are in a poor state of mental health. Sorry, but while you are in a good place, and if you’re not in a good place, give yourself those 10 minutes, 20 minutes to remind yourself. So by the time I have done done this, you know, brushed my teeth, gone downstairs, been grateful for the kettle and a cup of tea, and my husband and all of those good things within the 1st 15 minutes of my day, I’m in a better.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah. Yeah. Come on.
Tazmin Suleman:
And it didn’t take me any extra time because I’m still walking around, I’m still pushing my teeth. I’m still making the tea. So for those people who say I don’t have time, find ways to incorporate these practises in your day anyway.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah. And coming, coming at it from the perspective of you used to have a small agency before it became marketing signals. What? Where? How did you? How how did you get to where you? Are Gareth were. You always able to offer that that support that time. Did you always want to or know how to?
Gareth Hoyle:
Well, I think obviously Tasman mentioned genetics and I think that genetically oil men are uptight and anxious. So I think it’s just something that has has has been part of my life for as long as I can remember. And my my late father was the same. And unfortunately I can see. All the traits in my 11 year old son, so I think here’s something that I’ve just learned to. To live with, but also I think I’ve been getting better at managing it as I get older and one thing that that I think has really helped is now first of all, I accept that many of us are differently abled, so this won’t apply to everybody out there. But all the things that we talk about about the performance. Not, and always being on an anxiety and pressure, these are all mental things, and I quite often I feel mentally exhausted. And the way I managed to balance that out is I go to the. Now, if you haven’t got. Any money go for a run. Go for a walk now. Again, I accept the fact that not everybody has the facility to go running. I I fully appreciate that. Moving your chair stretch. I bet if you were to go to and I I I’m going to make an assumption here. If you go to YouTube and put in desk. Based exercises, I’m sure there is a probably overwhelming amount of video still, and if you’re in a bad place mentally, you’re probably gonna spend half an hour deciding which video to watch, which isn’t going to do you any favour. But I I think that that balance of physical to mental. Really does help, and I also see physical as being a way of just turning off digitally as well right there. I mean, you might. I say turning off digitally when I say turn off digitally, I still put the podcast on my Apple Watch.
Chris Simmance:
Have an official podcast, yeah.
Gareth Hoyle:
Always, always, Chris, it’s the only one. It’s the. Only one I. Subscribed to and the.
Chris Simmance:
SEO Mindset podcast of course as well there. That that’s happened. No other podcasts EXO.
Gareth Hoyle:
Nah, the rest are just a waste of time. Yeah, it’s just delete. Delete all those subscriptions. But there. I just think it is at the risk of sounding generic, just that balance between like being like cause look, we don’t lift bricks for a living. I used to say whenever I go to the bar with my friends in on a Friday night. But they always drink their first drink quicker than me because they’ve been grafting all day physically grafting. Well, guess what. It’s just as difficult the stuff we do because I am exhausted at the end of some days and it’s that, you know, I’ve I’ve been shouting into my webcam for the last. And I’ve just done and I for me personally, if I had no budget, I’d go for a run or a walk or or I’d get a yoga mat. You don’t even need a yoga mat. You can do it on your carpet, but you need might hurt and just watch some hit. Videos and I’m sure like say you can get sit down hit videos. You can get hit videos for those that are not as don’t have as much movement there.
Tazmin Suleman:
But just trying to just trying to, just trying to clear your brain.
Gareth Hoyle:
When I’m lying on the floor in the gem with sweat pouring off, me literally can’t sit or stand. I think I’ve achieved my goal here. I’m no longer mentally exhausted, I’m physically exhausted, and that just takes the edge off for me mentally. And that’s what works for me and I’m. I’m not here to preach about it working for everyone, but.
Chris Simmance:
So you you mentioned balance a few times there and from a work point of view, the imbalance at work can cause impact at home. So you know if. You’ve had bad. If you’re feeling crap from all the pressure and all the stress and. Relentlessness of of working in or running a digital agency. What other what the impacts at home and you know what can you do to help yourself around that?
Gareth Hoyle:
Yeah. So I am a massive, massive believer that bad at work equals bad at home. Bad at home equals bad at work and. Whilst there are certain things I can influence in the workplace that will hopefully make for a nicer home life, there are certain factors that are just beyond our controllers agency leaders. It’s so difficult not to take your work. Home with you in? What we do there, especially if you have. A boss or. A client that expects you to have slack and e-mail on your personal phones and and you know, turn the bloody notifications off. Guys like you don’t need to see it the.
Tazmin Suleman:
You know, I I.
Gareth Hoyle:
Turned all my social media notifications off on my phone. I don’t. Have a working. Private phone. I just have a. Do you know? What I realised? It doesn’t matter if I don’t see that e-mail till the next morning. It doesn’t matter if I don’t jump on board. The fact that someone’s made a comment on my LinkedIn post, it’ll still be there tomorrow, and I think that that being able to. Separate work and home, especially cause again. We work remotely, I work from. Home. I’m very lucky that I have a basement that I’ve converted into an office that’s got a door that I can close and my laptop has not been upstairs since I moved into this House. It’s not allowed because this is for work. And that’s for for what is it up here for thinking down there for dancing is that the that the famous thing? Because I’m thinking it’s down here for work. Up there for play and by play it could be with my kids. It could be with my partner. It could be on my own, but they’re just trying to get that separation and you know, they’re if you’re not enjoying yourself at work, it’s so hard not to take that stress and anxiety.
Tazmin Suleman:
And I see it myself. I’ve done it myself. I’ve I’ve shouted at my kids and I’m like, what are you doing like these poor?
Gareth Hoyle:
It’s, you know, my my kids, 11 and six, they don’t even understand work and then they see Daddy, Daddy’s coming home and well, he might pack a few comments on this for me, but we don’t, we don’t we don’t mention that to the labour Labour Board but they don’t understand. They just see Daddy stressed. They don’t want to. So yeah, you know, they’re growing up quickly. You’re wasting. You’re wasting time with your kids in their formative years by bringing the work BS out of work. And obviously the the higher up the food chain you go, the harder it is to leave stuff at home. I fully appreciate that and you know with the. Big salary comes the big responsibility with the big responsibility comes the additional pressure. I I totally get that and you know wine and weed may provide a short term solution, but really trying to find a way that you can. You can just just leave work at work. Is is one of the biggest things that I’ve done since you went remote, and I still don’t think I’ve cracked it, by the way, cause I’ve still got one phone that that beeps all all day, but at least I can’t see the. It’s almost like a it’s a mental trigger that. You’ve got to have no notification. I mean, look, you have two people in life, people that have got 8000 emails in their inbox and people that work for an inbox there. Ivan in Box 0 kind of guy, so I have to not see stuff the even on right now my phone is face down on the desk cause I just don’t want to see it because I want to be engaged here.
Chris Simmance:
I I I I call it Schrodinger’s notification when you’ve switched it all off because you’ve simultaneously got all of them and none of them and you don’t know either way until you look and you just don’t. Need to look. Until the time you choose or the time, that’s. Right. And what do what do you think, Tasman, when it comes to like, you know high? Pressure at work and. You know, let’s just. Pretend that we all work in offices, or we’ve got basements for for, for work and dancing rooms ups. Yes. What? What? What do you what? Do you suggest? Like some of the larger impacts are if you. Don’t leave it at work all sorts.
Tazmin Suleman:
I I remember a time when I started journaling and one of the first entries I had in my journal was. I keep shouting at the children. I’m becoming somebody I don’t even like. What do I do? And through this process of every night assessing how my day had been, where I had fallen over in terms of, you know, shouting them at them, whatever. And how would I do this next time in this scenario? What would I do differently next time and that really helped me calm down that the meditation. Again, a lot of hippie stuff going on, but yeah, there’s all sorts of studies coming up. Science is catching up with with the the way things used to happen way back when. There’s a lot of merit. And calming your mind down, be it through meditation, be it through yoga, whatever. So that has got me. Fast forward 1015 years. I barely lose my temper now. Very, very rarely. Once I really wanted to make a point across to my children and I didn’t think they were getting it. So I pretended to be angry. So they understood that this is a line that they don’t don’t shouldn’t cross. But you know my husband and I are in a very fortunate position where we are, you know, our plan is when the next six years to build up what our ideal retirement is going to be. So I I want to in my retirement just go around writing and speaking and this is what I’m I’m I’m not building a business. And building an ideal retirement, none of the. Kids are at home. Yeah, he’s doing the same so. We we have our work and our lives intermingled so much, but we don’t mind this. We like it. We enjoy our work, we find a lot of sanctuary in each other and in terms of impacts of relationship, we set goals in work. I want to reach, you know this level, this level, this level. What about setting goals in your own relationship? What if one of those goals is I will be the piece for the other.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I mean. I can’t imagine having a conversation about relationship. OK, ours, but that’s that’s another thing I. Not the webinar.
Tazmin Suleman:
But it’s it’s a it’s a.
Chris Simmance:
I don’t mean mine. I know I’ll get.
Tazmin Suleman:
In trouble, it’s a personal responsibility. Going back to mindset. Again, you know. Built your life in a way that you’ve become the person that you really want to be.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah. Well, I mean, that brings me on to this really nice and neatly actually, what? What tips do you have to a managed stress but be a little bit, uh, a little bit more able to kind of cope when things aren’t going well that you just that or cope when things are relentless for a little while because sometimes. Like you say, they just happen. You have to put up with it and so.
Speaker
What? What, what?
Chris Simmance:
Would be one of your kind of core tips there.
Tazmin Suleman:
So are you familiar with the concept of the stress container?
Chris Simmance:
I’m not and hopefully someone no. So you’re the only one. Tell us or.
Tazmin Suleman:
OK, so it it’s a way of visualising your stress capacity and it’s talked about by mental health England. So imagine a container that is the amount of stress you are able to to hold and in times of house move. For example, your container will become smaller because your capacity to to hold on to stress. Will be reduced bereavements another one relationship breakdown, big projects and so forth. And in the other way, if everything in life is hunky Dory, your capacity will be larger. So your ability to hold stress will be enhanced. So being being mindful that there is this thing of maximum for me is is an awareness that is really useful to have. Now in this container. All day long, drip, drip, drip things that are stressful are going to. Fill it up. Difficult conversation. Difficult morning, not being able to find the keys of the car, whatever. It’ll start filling up your container and there’ll come a point where it will overflow. And that’s when. You lose it. People will lose it in different ways. Somebody you know it’ll be anger or reaching for a cigarette or whatever. Now at the bottom of the container, imagine a tap. So you have the ability to reduce that stress level. Some people will use helpful techniques and some not so helpful, so having another drink not so useful. Shouting. Not so used. Chris isn’t so sure about having him.
Chris Simmance:
No, no, I’m. I’m. I’m being facetious. I I I I I totally agree. With you. Sorry. Carry on.
Tazmin Suleman:
And and then there’ll be more useful ways of relieving that stress. So it could be just 5 minutes in between those back-to-back meetings and I, I would say nobody should have back-to-back meetings. It’s ridiculous, it’s not doable. It’s not product. To and it’s certainly not kind to your brain, so even allowing yourself 5 minutes to go and have a stretch to go and do some breathing exercises is so beneficial. When you’re in. A state of I’m about to lose it. It’s very difficult to think of. I’m. I’m going to lose it. What do I do? What? What can I do to relieve it? So what? I get my clients to do is create themselves a self-care menu. Yeah. If you’re feeling like you’re about to lose it and you’ve only got 2 minutes, what things would help in 2 minutes?
Chris Simmance:
Ohh so you like? Pick it like it’s. A restaurant menu? Yeah.
Tazmin Suleman:
Yeah. So build that beforehand. I’ve got 2 minutes. I’ve got 5 minutes. I’ve got 10 minutes. I’ve got half a day. I’ve got a day. What would help me in that time? Some people will take time off and not know what to do. With that time off, but actually if you’ve pre planned, you know what I’d really like to? That’s one of the things I like doing is spending the day in the park with a picnic and a book. Nothing else. Nobody with me. Just and, of course, the picnic is going to be beautiful and the book will be wonderful. And the music will be great. And it’ll be a sunny day. That’s how I imagine it. Imagine it, but. Have this self-care menu. Yeah. And so those would be my ideas for relieving stress, understand. Keep checking in with yourself. How stressed and my feeling right now. Do I need to go and pick something quick from the menu, have that menu pre done before and self-care isn’t just about bubble baths? You know people whose positive self-care is also living a life that works for you, achieving goals that are meaningful to you. So going back to mindset and personal development, knowing what makes you happy, knowing what helps your creativity, knowing what sort of things that you want to do at work, not saying that your manager will be able to satisfy all of them. But if you think of yourself as an entity. In your own right, a little business in your own right. And say to your manager, I don’t know what’s coming up on our workload, but I’d quite like to have an opportunity to work a bit on strategy or do a presentation or do some training for the team, whatever it is. Most managers will thank you because great personal development already happening naturally. And you’re taking control of your own career.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, and and and and and I love the idea of the stress menu. As a tip, I think that’s a really good idea to have. And it’s a really good thing to to to, to develop and build for yourself and yeah, and what what about you Gareth? What’s what’s some tips from from your perspective cause you’re you you you know you’re running a very successful big agency, but you’ve also got an awful lot of people who. They’re all very different and very remote as well. So what? What tips have you got for everyone?
Gareth Hoyle:
Well, first of all, I’d laminate the stress menu so you can’t rip it off. It’s really stressed, so that’s one to get us started. I’m a big believer in positive affirmations if I’m honest, like I’m. I’m I’m I. I trade on like confidence and self-confidence and and you know what everybody that is in this industry. Should remember that you’re better than you probably think you. But there’s a reason you got that role. There’s a reason you you have these skills that you that you’ve developed over the years and again a bit of, you know, the risk of sounding see a bit of positive mental attitude sometimes. And look, I I get it’s hard sometimes you’re in a funk and you just can’t. Get out of. The funk and you know, maybe maybe a bubble bath. Just gonna get you out the front. Let’s not totally discount bathing, but the. Again, going back to like the going for. A walk. Just just. Trying to remove the things that are causing the stress from your brain even.
Tazmin Suleman:
For half an.
Gareth Hoyle:
Hour. You’re going to see a benefit from it. Are you getting the right amount of sleep? Is sleep keep is is work keep it’s a I mean. This is a a horrible circle of. Death where like? Works keeping me awake, so I can’t sleep. I can’t sleep, so I’m underperforming at work like the maybe this is where the the breathing techniques come in and the meditation before bed to just close your. Like charge your phone. On your landing, not in your bedroom. Things like that. That will just eliminate that, especially if you’ve got notifications on and you’re just about to nod off and your screens all. Of a sudden. Bright in your face. That’s not gonna do you any favours at all. But they’re one of my favourite ever campaigns. Was a few years ago by Dove and it was. You are more beautiful than you think. And it got women to draw what they think they look like. And then it got artists to draw what the women actually look like and. It is. It all comes down to self esteem, self-confidence, and and unfortunately it’s a self feeding beast and I’ve been there. I’ve been, I’ve I’ve had depression in the past. I’ve I’ve had ways where I just can’t get myself out of this horrible zone that I’m stuck in. And then. I was quite privileged that I took myself off. To Bali for six. Weeks and I came back feeling much better, but I appreciate not everybody has. Yeah, that that benefit but changed six weeks to. A couple of days an hour just just start small and build up and and again. Exercise and fresh. Air don’t, don’t. Don’t. Don’t undersell the benefit of just getting outside, like we’ll work on our computers. Ohh bloody day and you know what the ******* would have us there 18 hours a day if we let them. So just shut your laptop and go. For a walk.
Speaker
Will you and.
Gareth Hoyle:
I and I guarantee you’ll feel a bit better. Obviously the the the level of better will will depend on where you’re at mentally, but I promise you the the worst gym session you do is the one you don’t do. So go and do it and just.
Chris Simmance:
Well, I should go to the gym after this.
Gareth Hoyle:
Does feel better?
Chris Simmance:
I won’t take my phone.
Gareth Hoyle:
Good. Well, you can save. You can save podcasts, you watch. So you don’t need your phone.
Chris Simmance:
And I I typically don’t take my phone at all if I’m going out, like walking the dogs or anything. I I want to enjoy the the sound of the birds in the morning. I wanna enjoy the the sound of the world starting up and I wanna hear my dogs enjoy themselves and I wanna see things and think about things that are not work related. And the best way to do that is. Have something lumping around in your pocket all the time. Evenings and things I know you say, you know, let your phone charge on the landing or anything like that. I I have like different settings different notification times for different times of the day. If if it gets to 5:00 in the afternoon. Essentially my phones on do not disturb unless you’re my mum and and that’s pretty much it. Or Vicki and. But you know, if you if if it if someone can’t get in touch with you, then you don’t know if they’ve tried to get. In touch with you and for the most part. And even the biggest agency in the world, clients pay monthly staff get paid monthly bills get paid monthly, something that feels really important right now probably isn’t really important right now. It can be wait, you can wait. You can slow down and them to to sound like. A I’m I’m sort of. Saying I’d say this an awful lot. People my grandmother used to say to me less haste, more speed, Christopher. So you can work fast, but you. Have to rush. And rushing around is what everyone seems to think is the way to behave now. And there’s no kind of need for this hustle, bustle, rat race, style, type things it it. It kills people. And and look after yourselves and the people that are with you will look after you, and vice versa. And I think it’s really, really important to remember we’re all basically and poorly trained animals, really. And we don’t really know how we’re doing what we’re doing and we don’t know why we’re doing what we’re doing and and for the most part. Not people who’ve done any studies. Guessing, but with data, there’s a lot of ambiguity and look after each other. We only do this once for the most part, depending on what you believe.
Gareth Hoyle:
And and you’re doing better than you think. But you should. Always keep that at the forefront of your mind like we are our own worst enemies. Half the time. Right there, we. Self doubt is impostor syndrome. There’s so many ways of describing how most of us spend our life thinking, yeah. Be grateful, just not. I mean, I I totally agree with what you saying, Jasmine, about the the carpet under your feet. The clean water coming out the taps, the that you turned the radiator on heat comes out of it. It’s we’re all. Ohh, pretty lucky, really well.
Chris Simmance:
We really are and and I, and I often think that impostor syndrome is the exact opposite of the Dunning Kruger effect. And if you’ve got impostor syndrome, you’re probably doing all right. And statistically speaking, you shouldn’t have even been born. So you’re doing all right by breathing right now. So enjoy. That and and thank you very much tasmin for joining. Thank you very much, Gareth. And I know that this is really important to an awful lot of people. There’s been a lot of good comments in the in the, in the chat there. Please reach out to tasmin. I’m sure Gareth would love to chat outside inside of work hours, of course, and if you do e-mail him outside of work hours, you get a nice little auto responder that says I’m out of work hours. This isn’t that important and. Thank you very much again guys really, really enjoyable and and I know that this is something that that needs a lot more attention. As well, so I appreciate your your efforts here. So thank you.
Tazmin Suleman:
Thank you very much.
Gareth Hoyle:
Thanks for having the best.