Transcript
Chris Simmance:
Hello everybody. How are you doing today? Hey, Dave, how are you doing?
Speaker
Yeah. Are you there?
Dave Betts:
And there we go. Sorry.
Chris Simmance:
Ohh, I think there’s a there. Was a a time lag. You’re all the way down in South Africa.
Dave Betts:
Yeah, it it’s. Bad, but it looked quite. That bad. But anyway, my apologies I am online. Welcome to Cape Town.
Chris Simmance:
How? How are things in sunny Cape Town today?
Dave Betts:
Yeah. You know, I don’t want to mention the weather all the. Time, Chris, you know, because it’s simple English people. Of course you know, so it’s it’s it. Is autumn here and it’s, you know, it’s a. Cool 25 degrees. I was riding my Harley today and my T-shirt. On but do we want? To go there.
Chris Simmance:
Today. No, no, thank you. So to the uninitiated, Dave is an incredible coach, also an incredibly you’ve got an incredibly varied past in terms of the businesses you’ve run. The things that you’ve done, the exits that you’ve put yourself through and so can you give everyone who’s listening a little potted history of of who Dave Betz is and why OMG is so lucky that you’re one of our coaches?
Dave Betts:
Yeah, you’re such a smooth talker.
Chris Simmance:
Ohh you know.
Dave Betts:
OK, alright, so I’m I’m 54 years of age and I probably look like it and I’ve been involved in running my own company since I was 22, so I’ve had 9 ventures and all but one have been fairly. Successful, I have to say. Like I’ve been more luck than. So I trained as an electrical engineer. And then realised I like. People than more than machines and then went. To the westral psychology. So. So I can I can work out. What’s wrong with? Your with your electric and trying to work out your head at the same time. It’s quite a weird concoction so. Yeah, done coaching and change management for a number of companies where my own electrical engineering company in the UK started a number of charities 2 charities in in the UK. And then 2008 came to South Africa, where I saw an opportunity here in the energy market and started a company called Energy Drive, which I’ve been really busy over the last 12 years. And I exited that September last year and and decided they were going to go into semi retirement. So this is me doing semi.
Chris Simmance:
Yes, you’re not.
Dave Betts:
Yeah. So and then I decided to move back. From London to South. Africa, because it’s just nicer here. I think sometimes it’s actually at the moment cheaper as well. And so now I’m involved in helping companies grow. You know that that place when you got your first five or six employees and you want to go to the next. And that’s that was where I think it takes a lot the most skill, and I’ve I’ve got involved in helping them. And then finally, I’m working with the local university here at UCT and Stellenbosch, with their postgraduate programme helping young entrepreneurs. Get a grip and understand and work through how they can turn great ideas and change in this nation called Africa.
Chris Simmance:
And it’s an emerging market as well. So it’s, it’s you’re in, you’re in the right place. And I think there’s a, there’s a fantastic, there’s a fantastic amount of opportunity when you’re working with younger people as well. Digital agency people themselves are absolutely cutting edge from a technology. Point of view. Full of entrepreneurial drive. They’ve usually don’t know what they’re doing, and I mean. That as an ex. Recovering digital agency leader it’s it’s been a it’s very hard to learn what you don’t know that you don’t know. And yes, this is where this is where OMG Sims comes in and having people like you on board and people like you and Judith and things are are fantastic to to have along. So let’s let’s let’s kick off, shall we do? Should we start chatting about some stuff? So the whole point of this webinar for everyone’s benefit? Today is to. To give you some kind of ungated coaching skills that you can use to to to to better support your team, better support your your staff, help your help your team to grow. Also help you to grow so kind of coaching skills that you can use. That you don’t have to to read in a book and hopefully you’ll learn something from from Dave if if you don’t learn something from you, probably learn something from Dave. For sure so. First, the first first, first kind of talking point.
Dave Betts:
We’ll start, you know.
Chris Simmance:
I think I I I find this is easier to say than it is to do and but being curious asking questions but actually listening to the answers is the the the the latter part of that is the hardest thing. It’s curiosity usually uncovers like those. Black Swan events those those opportunities that you might have missed us being curious asking questions is is a great way to build trust. But you know what? What? I I I know that you’re one of the one of the key areas of your your coaching style is like people focus bit. So how do? How would you normally go about this if you’re trying to get an agency? Leader to to. Sort of be a better curious listener.
Dave Betts:
Yeah, I think I think it all starts from a realisation that. The the greatest gift any leader of any organisation can have is the gift of wisdom. You know, we get our talents and skills and charisma and passion and all those great things, but without, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I find. Lots of young people, young people look at me, have them. But actually the thing that turns that into success and us into great leaders is understanding. But we need wisdom now. Where does wisdom come from? Wisdom firstly comes from understanding that none of us has the full picture. None of us understands really what’s going on. So Stephen Covey as his. Thing which is in his book 7 habits, which I paid my kids to read by the way, and.
Chris Simmance:
He paid them.
Dave Betts:
Yeah. Yeah, man. They’ll they’ll tip. They’re always pay your. Kids to read books. They then read them. And so I paid them to read 7 habits and I think they still do it every year. So. And he says in the seven habits seek first to understand before being understood. So it’s the whole question of curiosity starts from the place of there is something I. Can learn from you. There is something I can learn from everyone every single day and. That that is. The the harder wisdom, right? Because I want to find out and understand. And so the question of asking questions. Comes firstly from the premise of. Do I want to understand what this person is thinking? Feeling where this person’s come? Rather than do I just want to earn the right to give? Him. Really what? I want to say.
Chris Simmance:
That, that, that, that that’s one. Of the the the things that people get very wrong, right? I I’m gonna ask you a bunch of questions.
Speaker
Right.
Chris Simmance:
So then I can turn that very quickly into a well can you get? On with doing this then please.
Dave Betts:
Right, exactly. And somehow we feel obliged to ask a question because it feels polite to do so rather than when. If we really wanted to do it, there’s barge and tell them what to do. And then and leave and yeah, but. We we feel we feel quite English. We have to ask them how. Are you? You know, we don’t really care. We just asked the question and before they’ve even told us, we telling. What we want, but what I’m saying is. Is the great leader the good leader? Generally ask the question because they realise that to seek to understand someone allows them to be understood. You know, there is this sense of I want to know really what is going on so. It’s, but that comes. From wisdom I want to, I want to increase in my wisdom, right?
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I I-1. One thing which, UM, one thing which I think. Is is kind of really important to know is that you know if you’re a leader, you don’t get a day off from being a leader. You might have a day off of work, but you never. Really take a. Day off of being a leader. And I think that you’ve you’ve gotta remake, you’ve got to to, to work towards this kind of listening wisdom driver. You’ve gotta try to to to get more out of yourself. And others all the time. Because if you have a bad day when you’re in the office and you don’t follow through consistently in the same way, it can have more of a negative impact on the team than it can. If, if if you’re, you know if you don’t do it at all. And and it’s really, really important to kind of give a damn about what the answers are.
Dave Betts:
Yeah, I I love it. And that comes from having being emotionally strong. If you if you. Not paying any attention to yourself, your inner self, your emotional, your strength, you go to work. There’s no ways you’re going to listen intently because. You need emotional energy to listen and seek. To understand right. So I I. Love what you’re saying? Weekend is you’re never off. Prepare yourself. Come to work. Emotionally strong. You then can be curious. You ever tried being curious and understanding someone when you’re absolutely? Tired all you want to do is put.
Chris Simmance:
I mean, all the time, it’s really hard.
Dave Betts:
Yeah, they they have furry, right?
Chris Simmance:
I think I think the the the the key thing to this as well is that you know leadership in and and the the these kind of coaching skills that you can take into work. You can also live as well. You know I find that I what’s what’s the saying you get. More flies with honey than you do with vinegar or something like that. Combo the saying now. And but you you get more out of life by putting more into other people and and genuinely being curious and asking the right questions, but giving a damn about the answers will will, will teach you something, but it will also mean that you know you’re practising what you preach outside of work as well. And I think that you just get better stretching that muscle all the time. But you get more out of life because people. Will give more.
Dave Betts:
Yeah, and the the quality of life is determined by the quality of the questions you ask and the honesty in which you reply. And you know, I think I think if we live with that desire to to be curious, to be asking questions and then to reply with honesty, which is the next thing cause often we wanna reply with what we think the other person wants to instead of asking, replying with some honesty. And you know that it’s the the ability to not be argumentative but to say that’s an interesting. View let me explore that for more. You know, if we had that, yeah, maybe maybe the world. Would be so divided if we took. That more of a.
Chris Simmance:
Case. Yeah, I think and and and and you actually have to care like you can’t. And and I mean this in the nicest way, not everyone is is a nice person, but not everyone has to be not not everyone is always a. A bad person. You you can. Uhm, uh, you you you can have a. Bad day, but don’t. Take it out on someone else. Try and practise what you preach as much as you can, because the reality is you’ll feel better if you get more out of someone else rather than having to sort of. Force force the the the the. Matter. I think a a large thing as well is if you do the listening, you also should sorry if you do the listening. You should also be expecting to be listened to, and that’s not a hierarchical thing. It’s a. Kind of a quid? Pro Quo, part of being a human being. You don’t want to just. Listen to someone all all day long. I can’t imagine what some of these like some talking therapists do. If they go home to an empty house after hearing everything everyone else says all day. But if you if you do a lot of listening, then you should expect to be listened to as well. And I think the only way to do that with within a digital agency is to kind of. See the other people come to you with with things that that that they can show they’ve listened to you by the delivery of work or or by just simply remembering your birthday.
Dave Betts:
Absolutely. If if I I believe in that. If you do listen I member you don’t listen with your ears you listen with your body language you listen with your eyes you know do you look at them when they’re talking to you you know or do you look at your phone you know you look with your whole being now if you give somebody that level of time remember we live in a world that’s fighting for your attention. Yeah, if you give someone that level of attention. There it will definitely be reciprocated because of the greatest compliment anyone could receive. Someone who’s giving me their undivided attention.
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, right.
Chris Simmance:
And in interesting question, before we move on, May has just asked on Twitter. I think it’s come from, I feel like I listen to my team but always seem to get it wrong when it comes to managing them. Is it a me? Anything. I’m gonna let you craft craft your diplomatic response to me.
Dave Betts:
I feel like I listened to my team, but I always seem to get it wrong. So the first question is you listening but not understanding so and then when it comes to managing them I I get that wrong. I don’t manage them well. You won’t manage them well if you don’t first understand. So are you listening? To tick the box of listening or are you seeking? To understand so. So may the question here is. You feel like you’re listening, but what’s the quality of the questions that you’re asking though? It’s actually like the quality of the questions you’re asking need to be improved. Dig deeper, ask deeper questions.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I I I’d echo that. I think when you’re if you’re, if you are just ticking a box. In anything in life, it’s very obvious to other people, especially over time, and especially if you’re the one that’s managing them to deliver other things. If you’re not listening properly but you’re like listening for an outcome, then then again, it’s very it’s very transparent. So like like Dave says, I think dig deeper and ask more meaningful, more meaningful questions when it comes to giving and receiving feedback from a leadership point of view. In an agency in particular, there is an awful lot of different angles that feedback come from. They come from clients, they come from people internally to the clients. They come from people in the agency, external with the agency. Feedback is everywhere, but from a leadership point of view, dealing with your teams from when it comes to feedback, I think it’s. I think it’s really, really important and this ties very closely into listening. It’s that you listen and you get listened to and and feedback. I I I think feedback, I don’t know what your thoughts are here. It’s a bit of an art. Warm, especially when you’re receiving it.
Dave Betts:
It it it is. So they say feedbacks breakfast of champions about that. All the time. It’s well, they well, Drucker does. I’m in my view people what people say and what people mean are often very different. So the feedback that I receive from people are and what they actually would like to tell me. Sometimes our worlds apart. So I’ve I’ve I’ve always been a big believer in fruits and roots. The the root of something is what I’m interested in, not the fruit of something. So if someone comes to me and says, you know, you’re always late, you know you’re late. You know, for this meeting, you’re late for this meeting. That’s the fruit of something. Actually the it’s probably rooted in procrastination or lack of planning, or lack of prioritising, right? So just talking about the evidence, the fruit of lateness, without asking better questions or giving which lead to better feedback. So feedback that someone is always late shouldn’t just be you’re always late the feedback. Could be tell me about your diary planning and you’re prioritising now. So now we’re asking a root question of a fruit. So when someone gives me feedback, I tend to want them to ask them the root feedback. So if they the root. Issue they say to me, Dave, you’ll you know at your workshop, you you did this and you didn’t explain it that well. So I want to understand well what how would you expect me to be explaining what what would be an example of a better way of doing it. Let me understand the root of this question so. The trouble is. Feedback. If we take it at surface level, I think can be fairly innocuous. I think we need to take feedback and go about. Steps down with it and and take the time with someone. Who wants to give? You the feedback, right?
Chris Simmance:
I think that I think taking the time to listen to, to take feedback and receive feedback is essential, and when you’re running a team as well and in in digital agencies, there’s so much going on all the time and it can feel awkward to follow a bit of a mental process when it comes to delivering feedback. But if you don’t do things consistently. And do them well. And then again, it causes more harm than good. And you know, sometimes you give someone one type of feedback around a deliverable and then another time a very harsh short. Not that well considered version. They don’t know what to. Expect that. What? What what? Might well be coming, and I think there’s there’s a few things which, which I’ve always found really helpful when it comes to delivering feedback, especially if. Uh, you feel as a leader a little bit annoyed that something wasn’t done quite right. Usually if it’s not been done quite right, you’ve either not trained someone properly, you’ve not delegated to them properly, or you’ve not managed them properly. But those things usually manifest as ohh that person’s done something annoying and I. Don’t like them and. Things that I’ve typically found when it comes to delivering feedback. And and it would be great to hear some insights from you as well, Dave, is that? If you if you deliver feedback that negative feedback but you deliver it relatively swiftly, then it’s relatively quick in the mind of the person that you’re delivering it to. But you’ve gotta be very careful that you’re not using emotion in there, so you don’t use absolutes like always or. Every time or every day, etcetera, because they’ll say, well, there’s this one time when that wasn’t the case, so always doesn’t exist and find. Your your feedback is. And talk about things that you’ve seen you’ve heard or you’ve potentially felt and hopefully haven’t felt anything physical and but if you talk about the the things you’ve seen and heard, then there’s something tangible to lock onto and always way before you get deliver the feedback, consider what you want. From that feedback, do you want that person to just know that they’ve done something wrong? Well, that’s not very good feedback because there’s nothing. There’s no, there’s no improvement from that beyond someone walking away. Thing, you know I’ve upset. That what? What do you want to get from that feedback usually and hopefully the answer is I want that person to deliver this better next time or feel more confident delivering something or ask for training or whatever it might. Well, be. Yeah, and. If you use the right language and you come into it with the end in mind, the outcome in mind. It’s super easy to workout. What it is you need? You. You. Well, you gotta got it clear in.
Dave Betts:
I love it 100% little phrase. That I’ve learned. People need light, not heat, and we we need to bring in our feedback in any of our conversations. We need to cheque ourselves 1st and I bring light into this situation or just heat. So before you do any form of feedback to anyone, the first person that needs to have feedback is yourself. You need to am am I in the right place? Am I in a grounded set? Hold OK, place to bring this. Or am I just going to bring heat into the chase? That’s walk away, work it through and try and split out what is like from. What is heat? So you do what you. Said you said what I want. What’s the result of this feedback? What is it? Don’t want this just to feel ******. Doing, you know doing that thing, yeah.
Chris Simmance:
Well, you know.
Dave Betts:
Well, I actually want him to improve that I can improve. We’re gonna improve. Together, right that. Is so then ask the question of your own feedback. Will what I’m saying. Lead to that outcome. And if it is in the trusted, OK. And then asked the question is it rooted? Is it a root? Or is it? A fruit that I’m that I’m giving to you back. On so and then lastly, the difference between an event and a pattern is usually two or three times. So if someone’s late once you’re giving feedback. On an event, if they’re late three times, you’re giving feedback on a pattern, and so the the thing to ask yourself is which feedback am I giving? And and then if it’s a pattern AM. I dealing with the root cause.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I I yeah, I would think we’re on the same page with that. I think it’s really it’s so important. When you’re when you’re delivering feedback like like I said earlier, to kind of take that emotional bit out of it. And you can you can. Highlight that something wasn’t quite right. Immediately when it happens, but you don’t have to deliver the feedback immediately when it happens, because usually at that point you’re it’s the feeling is is more powerful than the actual. What am I trying? To get out of there. And I feel like a broken record when they say this, and thankfully my my grandmother won’t know that I’m saying it all the time, but I I say this an awful lot to people it it it my grandmother used to say, less haste, more speed. Christopher so. Don’t have to act fast, but in going slow you can actually deliver things faster and better, and only the one time.
Dave Betts:
How you go fast?
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, and and and and and it stuck with me for years. And and it didn’t work out what it really meant until I realised, actually, it’s kind of think slower. Take yourself away from the situation, OK. Cool. I I’m. I’m aggrieved that that person has not done their job. Right. Probably haven’t delivered the brief to them properly. Probably and in some way should have helped them a bit better. Maybe I delegated it incorrectly. I didn’t have the time to help them through the process. Now I feel a bit bad about. This but I’ve got. To let them know it’s not been done right and we’ll deal with it tomorrow. And then by the end of the at the beginning of the next day, you. Can give them proper clear. And size actionable feedback.
Dave Betts:
Now I know that a lot of managers, leaders. Are listening to us right now. Going what? I’m the time for that. Just tell them when. It hit it what you want about mean by the. Real world, I’ve. Had like a billion emails since then, right? Yeah. I want to go. Back to your go, slow to go fast. The important thing is is if we address these issues in a measured thought through bringing clarity way go back to your first thing. Curious way rather ask the question first before making the statement. Yeah, I noticed that when we were presenting to our client, you were distracted by your phone. Was there something going on that? But you know, I I I need to understand what? Why was that rather than just saying next time we do a presentation turn your your phone off? Yeah, I think we, yeah.
Chris Simmance:
Exactly. No, exactly I I. I and and I and I think the. The other side of this is when you as a leader get feedback from your team and now sometimes that’s quite hard because there’s a hierarchy and you don’t necessarily like to hear something which you don’t want to hear. Especially from someone that hierarchically may well not be on your level, but they’re still human beings and it goes back to the listening.
Speaker
You, you. You.
Chris Simmance:
You you’re if you’re willing to give feedback, you should be willing to receive feedback, but in the right. Way and that’s when you should be teaching your team the right ways to approach feedback. The right ways to to have that kind of discovery. What’s the route I need to identify the real root of the problem or? At the very least, have the critical thinking mechanisms. Internally, to be able to then come to to someone and say, hey, this didn’t go to plan, I’d quite like to get to the root of how to solve it next time. Because it didn’t help any of us.
Dave Betts:
I love that and and I think process. Good feedback goes to good processes. You know there’s a time and a place to bring feedback and walking to the car on the end of a very long day is not the time to.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dave Betts:
Bring your feedback you. Know or two minutes. Before we about to go make the biggest picture of. Your life don’t bring your feedback. Ben, you know it’s there. And as leaders, we need to create forums for feedback, not you know, this is our time where people go measure and sit down with us. We’re in a. Good. I’m alright. Space. You know I’m prepared for it. You’ve thought about it. And then I think it creates the right safe. And that’s the word safe environment to bring good feedback.
Chris Simmance:
Absolutely. And I think that one of the key things to consider, I I believe that and I said. A little bit about this earlier that you don’t always have the best of days. Not everyone. You don’t know what’s going on in everyone’s life. You know their. Cat might be sick, or they might have missed two buses and had to run in the rain and all sorts of different things like that. But when you’re giving receiving feedback, asking questions, listening to people, supporting people, you have to remember that they’re not in your head and they don’t know how you feel right now. So situationally you need to know that other people might not be in the best place. So that’s where you you listen with your eyes, right? You know you look.
Dave Betts:
Yes, because we first.
Chris Simmance:
At your body language and things.
Dave Betts:
To understand before being understood, let me. Understand where you’re at. Then you can understand where I’m coming from. I like that, Chris. Really good stuff.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, and and and from from a from another perspective as well, you need to know like the traits that the person that you’re speaking to or coaching or leading. Has and that means you know, knowing your key drivers but knowing their key drivers as well, you know there’s there’s certain ways that you would speak to one person that are ever so slightly finessed for another person because they behave and respond differently in slightly different ways. And I think if you know how they are situationally and you know, kind of what their. Typical responses and drivers are to certain things. You understand each other better, which means that you can have much more collaborative work and you can then have feedback which is negative. But because you trust each other, it’s an. Awful. Lot nicer.
Dave Betts:
Absolutely. And you have insights, you know, and understanding it’s a, it’s a theme we’re building, right? Yeah. You understand the people that we employ, just not for what they do, but for who they are. You know they are human beings first and foremost, and we need to understand them in order to put them in the best out of them I.
Chris Simmance:
Like that? Yeah. And and sometimes like. You know that, let’s say. 50 emails have just come in this gone. This has gone wrong. You’ve got a call coming up. Everything’s going on around you. Lots of lots of things are happening in in that situation and then someone does something and you’re not that keen on the outcome or you know that you’ve got to to to be to lead them properly or you’ve got to go on to a. Call with a bunch of people that you. You. Something’s happened and you know you’re gonna have to speak to them in a in a not so happy way later. And it’s it’s super important to maintain that, that, that leadership mindset. And I think that you know the. I I I I often say to to the agencies that I work with most of the time clients pay monthly and get their reports monthly and team do their work on a monthly recurring basis and get paid monthly and notice periods are monthly. Everything’s roughly monthly. Some stuff gets updated weekly but realistically you don’t need to. Act right now. If something’s going on 1,000,000 miles an hour, there’s only so many things you can take at a time. And you know when you’ve got an elephant in front of you to eat one bite at a time. Is fine and yeah.
Speaker
Let let me look up here.
Dave Betts:
The the the.
Speaker
The the the.
Dave Betts:
The 40 I have a 40. 8 hour rule I used to used to help people who had an addiction to spending money on credit cards, and so I. Had a I had a. Winning form and I’m not sure it works these days, but before you could pay on your phone and all that stuff I used to put tell them to put the credit card in a plastic bag for a little order. Stick it in the freezer. So what that meant. They wanted to to buy anything there to take it out, defrost it, dry it off and then purchase it with the credit card. And every time it worked, it stopped them doing it and the so we apply and and business either and. We applied the. 48 hour rule. No one’s. Allowed to give feedback for 48 hours 48 hours. Because what we want people to do is to go away, think about it, measure it, reduce. The heat bring. Some light in maybe get some perspective on something and then create the appropriate safe forum to bring that that information up to, yeah. Think of the credit card. Put your put your comments in the freezer for 24 hours.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, and and and very little, you should never kind of attribute malice to what may well be ignorance and and when something isn’t quite right, it doesn’t mean that they’ve done it intentionally. So if you stick it in. The freezer for. A little while. And then when you come back to it, you spend a little bit of. Time and you’re gone. That was just. Because, yeah, something happened. Something that you know, they they weren’t prepared for or weren’t ready to be prepared for or whatever else it might be. And and it and it makes it makes an impact when you when you know what’s going on in people’s lives, it makes it a lot easier to understand why you might not need to give feedback as well. So. You know, let’s say some work hasn’t been perfect, but you know the person will solve it if you tell them the work needs to be done or whatever, but they’re going through a house move and their grands just died and and things like that. Well, you know that the feedback is probably gonna be along the line. Ends of these are all the things that are happening to you. We get it. We’ll take a little bit of work away from you. We’ll help you however we can. How can we help you make sure you’re cause you’re gonna be if you’re doing your job very well, usually. And then you start delivering substandard work or attitudes change. It’s usually the situation that’s changed around you. You don’t typically. New behaviour that.
Dave Betts:
So that’s a. Great example of fruit root questioning. You know you could you could make a statement about the fruit you screwed up this piece of. Work that was needed. Or you could ask the question. Usually you’re really accurate, and I noticed that today or yesterday you weren’t quite so accurate. Is there something else going on that’s a route? Question. Yeah, you’re giving feedback, but. You’re doing it in. A curious way, right? Yeah, a vulnerable way. As opposed to just, I’m commenting on the. Fruit which does not.
Chris Simmance:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And and and. None of these things work unless you work on yourself. As a leader.
Dave Betts:
You get the.
Chris Simmance:
And and I know that you’re really, really impassionate about this. You’re very, you know, this is a big part of how you know how you work with leaders, how you mentor people, how you spend time with people. And I I I spoke to a really lovely. Agency leader this week and unfortunately we’ve, you know, we said we can’t work with them. They’re not quite ready yet. They don’t. If you they’re not quite ready to sort of articulate who they are themselves, you can see it that it will be very, very difficult to help. Them lead people. And let without them following a checklist, if that makes sense and and and and I’ve written this in the little speech bubble is something you’ve said. Find your true north and align your thinking and leadership to it. And I’d love for you to talk about a little bit about this in in a little bit detail. Because I know it’s really.
Dave Betts:
Important. Yeah. So I guess this sums up really. The core of my coaching, really. So many people are are have. Their own Rd. Map. But if you don’t have your own compass. You’re going to find yourself getting lost and the trouble is, is if you don’t know where your true north is, you’ll try and use someone else’s compass to navigate your own map. And yeah, lots of people can tell me their plan for their life and their road map for their business and their goals and their targets and all those things. But they get lost. Halfway through the process. And they they only lost because their. Business plan was. Bad or their or their product was bad, or they they get lost because they’ve lost themselves in that journey. Right. Yeah. So I call that true wolf. It’s The Who you are. Before what you do. And it’s I work with. I work with postgraduates. You’re full of what they want to. Do, but if you ask The Who are you question? Because we do everything we do comes out of who we are. But if we are uncertain as. Do who? Who am I? What is the drivers that make me? How do? Who’s making me respond the way I am? Then when you go on this journey and the journey. Is full of you. Know valleys and hills and all the. Rest we can use analogies. If we don’t know who. We are. We have nothing then to point us to where we’re going and why we’re here. You know, it’s amazing. People start the journey in January of a year. And I get. Inundated with people saying I don’t know why I’m doing this anymore, why did I start this company? Where am I on? This journey you. Know why? Am I even, you know, and they’re not?
Chris Simmance:
Why am I putting myself through all of this stuff and all the the metaphorical punches in the face? And why am I doing it? And if you can’t answer the question, ask a few questions.
Dave Betts:
Yeah, start with the end in mind, which is again another Co views in my love that. And remember everything starts to. You first everything built twice. You first built in the mind in the imagination, and secondly, it’s built physically. If we short circuit the process and we try and build the plane while we’re flying, we never really understand the full picture of what it is that’s really inside of us because we don’t do the work and I’d love to say to any. Leader that’s listening. Do the work and do the work regularly. The work is who am I? What are my values? What are my principles? What are the guiding drivers inside of me? When was the last time you paid? Attention to those things. And I I can’t tell you the dividend that pays when we pay attention to the internal journey, how that gives us the guidance and the strength of the external.
Chris Simmance:
So so beyond the the kind of, I suppose, semi obvious questions of like why the heck am I putting myself through this? Because in digital agencies it’s, it feels very on fire all the time. Usually you know you’re either on fire. Because you’re you’ve got. You’ve got loads of good clients and you’re doing a really good job and you’re spending loads of time hiring and doing all the the the, the cool grind and but you still feel tired and you’re not sure what what you’re getting out of it cause that future is still too far in advance or having the fire of client churn, staff churn, client issues, staff issues, etc. Obviously those those. Two things are are still gonna you’re gonna ask the question eventually. What the heck am I doing this for?
Dave Betts:
Right, right, right.
Chris Simmance:
Now the Nice version of it. The from my perspective, I don’t know how you feel the nice version of it when things are going really well, you need. You still need to have that three five year plan in mind because the horizons. The the horizons long things feel great now, but are you on track to deliver the thing that you are aiming for? And if you’re not on track for the thing you’re deliver aiming for, what do you need to change and how? Do you work on that? But you’re still? Well, yeah, and and and and and you’re. Still asking those kinds of questions like why am. I doing this. Cause it’s bloody hard and if you’re having a negative amount of the negative series of things happening, you’re asking the same question. So what would what if you’re? Beyond that question, beyond the like the why am I doing this? What kinds of things do you think agency leaders who are listening now? Can can sort of internally ask themselves. That will help them to. Trying to go, I need to work on this because eventually you’re gonna come up against it and it’s better to come up against it when you’ve got the time.
Dave Betts:
It does. So I mean it it it is the end goal, you know, what is what is the end in mind, you know? And why are you building an agency in the 1st place? You know your other. Whenever a company starts always say are you building this company to sell and get rich and then, you know, make lots of money? And that’s great. Or are you building a business to hand over to your children and have a have a name kind? Of somewhere? Is it a legacy business or is it a? Is it a? A wealth creation business. And define that right from the early stages and onsets, cause it changes the questions right? But. We we let me just. Touch on these five drivers because I think it goes to. The heart of what we’re doing.
Chris Simmance:
Do it. Yeah, absolutely.
Dave Betts:
Every human being is driven by 5 things, and if you are feeling uncertain or you’re feeling unsettled in any way, it will always be because of one of these five things, right? You’re driven by security, the need to have money in the bank, a roof over your head. No, we’re going to. You’re driven by variety. We need to know that there’s something different happening. It’s not the same old toast. The same old cereal, the same old work, the same old problems. Right, so we need variety. We’re driven by significance, the need to have meaning and make meaning. That’s why agency live and change somebody’s life more than just money. Right. We driven by the need for personal growth. Am I growing learning becoming a better, bigger person, right. And finally, we’re driven by community and connexion. So security, variety significance, our personal growth and community and connexion if you are feeling unsettled as a leader in any way it. Will be because of one of those five and when we are making decisions about our future, we need all five ingredients in our decision making.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, and and they should be in the back of your mind, right? You’re not gonna necessarily sit there with the. List every time you’re trying to come up. With a decision. It should be something you work on overtime. And and do.
Dave Betts:
Yes, yes, that’s right. Yeah, yeah.
Chris Simmance:
Exactly. And and and and I suppose when something isn’t quite right, you can run that mental checklist somewhat because you know that it’s a, a situation, a situational problem, that that you can solve because of the the reason you’re. Doing this job I know I want £10 million in the bank and I also want to have five holidays and a massive family and loads of dogs. Well, I’m nowhere near any of those things. So very clearly, some of the pain that I’m having right now is because that’s not attainable. Well, what can I physically change to get to? There do I need to change? My mindset and my minds eye of what I’m.
Dave Betts:
Aiming for. Yeah. Yeah. So when the why is big. Enough for how is usually not. No problem. So if you are. A problem today. The and you don’t know how to overcome it. The answer lies in defining the why, right? So the the problem? The problem is that the problem the issue is always the motivation the why so. Yeah. If if the if. You’re facing a problem as a leader in. A business I. Mean I just exited a £50 million business last year, which we grew from zero in. 12 years. There are a lot. Of problems in building that. Right. So it’s a global facility?
Chris Simmance:
You had hair when you started that.
Dave Betts:
And I used to have hair and I was like. 20 year old. Yeah. So but. I had a Y. My Y was to exit it so that I don’t have to keep looking at earning the money. I can do something out of my heart to. Like today, right? But if the why? Is big enough. The how is usually not a problem. And that why comes down. To thirsty doing the work. Why that start in the 1st place? What’s the? Purpose of this agency? Where am I going with this agency? And then when we start making big decisions, ask yourself, am I making this decision because I’m feeling insecure or in in more variety, or is not enough significance or I’m not? I’m not growing. What is on that connexion and community fix those first before you go and you know, switch off your agency, blow it up or.
Chris Simmance:
I I had a a conversation with an agency leader. I think I probably have a similar conversation every six to nine. Months. It’s ready to throw it all in the bin. And then six to nine months later, it’s I need someone to buy it and then six, nine months later, it’s throw it in the bin and and it and it it’s a, it’s a cycle that that repeats itself. But knowing what you want, knowing who you are, those things, those, those things shouldn’t.
Speaker
Right.
Chris Simmance:
Be the question, as you repeatedly ask and I think you know, a big part of knowing yourself drives you in that right direction. And so, Dave, to wrap up, I’ve got, I’ve got one, one question that I think if you were to give one piece of advice to an agency leader. To help them coach their teams to be better, what one piece of advice would you give? I think you probably touched on about 50 pieces of advice here, so you’re allowed to. Repeat, I’m sure.
Dave Betts:
Ohh yeah, well I’m gonna. Recap some of those things and I think.
Chris Simmance:
Yeah, I think that’s a good idea. It’s it’s so much.
Dave Betts:
Yeah. So seek first to understand before being understood, OK, make that a mantra. Walk into every meeting, the best sales presentations you ever make is when you ask questions first to make state. Lost. OK, so speak first to understand before being understood. Create a safe place for feedback. A place where it’s mutual. It’s you’ve got enough time and ask route questions. Don’t make fruit statements. So ask questions and rules, not yeah.
Chris Simmance:
It looks rhyming.
Dave Betts:
I should should be a wrapper when the. Y is big enough the. How is usually not a? Problem, therefore, always talk about the why before we unpack the. How or the problem that’s in in the in? The way why? Are we doing this in the first? Plates and then usually the answer comes and then lastly what we need in every one of our agencies and businesses is light, not heat. We need to go slow and not far.
Chris Simmance:
I think that.
Dave Betts:
Wraps up all little gems there.
Chris Simmance:
Mate. Wonderful. Thank you. As ever lovely to talk to you. I think I. I think probably this is this is. A hugely I know not to. Not to devalue this. This is a very small amount of being a leader, but it is in a massively impactful way to to start the growth journey to become a proper leader and you’ve just got to take that first little step, as it were. So first, like thank you so much for coming along, Dave, Dave, one of the coaches at the OG Centre, he he works with our agency leaders very much focused in, in and around these areas because that’s what he’s absolutely great and hopefully you can you can, you can tell that he really does give a. Damn about this stuff. Our next webinar in a week or Two’s time is with the the the guys at the HR department. We’re going to be talking about how to navigate the employee landscape like a boss. Really, really important at the minute with lots and lots of things going on in the world, you really do need to get the right people, but you also need to be able to look after those people and in tough times, say goodbye to some of those people. So thanks again, Dave, and we’ll play a nice little outro thing as we wave into the distance. Across 1000 miles.
Dave Betts:
Well, I was from South Africa.
Chris Simmance:
Thank you guys. Thank you very much. Dave, speak to you all.
Dave Betts:
Thank you. Yeah.