VO Guy
Hello and thanks for coming along too. And we have an office doc, the digital agency podcast where we talk to agency owner, directors and learn more about what makes them tick from the things that make them similar to the things they’d rather have known sooner where they’ve had success. And where they’ve learned some. The lessons all will be revealed with your host Chris Simmons, the agency coach, and he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us. Over the next 25 minutes. OK, so let us begin over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance
Thanks. Voice over guy and on today’s podcast, we’ve got Lisa Poske, former founder of Verb search and now the founder and CEO of Ebtech Vision.
Lisa Paasche
Hello. Hi.
Chris Simmance
But we got I got there eventually with the pronunciations there so, but firstly firstly very quickly and we’ll go into this later. What does Ector mean?
Lisa Paasche
Actor means real and honest in Norwegian.
Chris Simmance
Fantastic. That makes a lot more sense. Yeah. So we’ll talk about that really shortly. So in the first instance, if you can give me a plug of what you do, uh, what you do now specifically and kind of a little bit of your pedigree slash heritage, uh, give us a plug. Who is Lisa?
Lisa Paasche
So now I run a mentoring and advisory business for agencies and CEOs wanting to be more of who they are and help them, uh grow their business to potential exits. And then I was CEO and founder of Berg search for 12 years, which I grew to 57 people and and we sold to Omnicom Media Group in 2017.
Chris Simmance
Correctly, that’s 57 people to keep track of and well done. So, as with every podcast, we’ve got 4 questions. We’ll see where the next 25 minutes or so takes us, and I think we’ve got two kind of streams to have a chat about here. One is how you got to the point where you did with verve and and the the why’s where for us and. How’s you managed to do your exit and then and then we can talk about the the coaching and mentoring and things like that that you do because I think that overlaps really nicely to any of the agency owners. Listening right now as. Well, cool. So first first question. What has been one of your sort of personal biggest successes over the years of running the of up to the up to now?
Speaker
Well, I.
Chris Simmance
Is it a big pot of cash? You. Got for selling it. Good, good.
Lisa Paasche
No, not at all actually. And it’s. Yeah, The funny thing with money is that it doesn’t change anything really, other than the things that you, you, you’re obviously the the logical things. Uh, so I think uh. Trying to sell the agency just for the money is likely not. To get you to the sale of a business. Yeah. And so I think my my greatest success was in the teams that I built. Uh, and the achievements that those those people were able to do. And there’s so many examples of. Proud moments, but most of them are all about seeing people go from. Uhm, from juniors to seniors to heads of departments and seeing them being able to make their own decisions and their own kind of. Path and that’s really if something’s really special and then I would also say being able to do. A lot of things. Normally, especially in the SEO industry at that point was like that can’t be done. And that for me was a huge motivator for for striving for quality. It’s like the more people said look, that can’t be done. You can’t get link from this site or this site or you you, you won’t be able to to. Get that kind of quality links for poker clients for example, like those things really motivated me and also motivated all the people after the burgers.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, I mean the the first part there is is absolutely key, isn’t it into any agency growth you the people that you put in ultimately help you grow the business and and watching those people grow can feel fantastic and there’s there’s going to be people who have different kind of cultural beliefs, upbringings families, different things going on. So their their motivations are always different. As well, but watching someone go from a brand new junior all the way up to like a head of department or even or even exiting the agency and becoming an owner of the of their, of of themselves or something like that is is fantastic to. See, isn’t it?
Lisa Paasche
Yeah. No, absolutely, I don’t.
Chris Simmance
You can can.
Lisa Paasche
I yeah. And I I think, yeah, I had even even as I exited, I had had kind of mentored and and helped uh one person to take over the agency and uh. So sad of of him of your nest for. Everything is done after I exited as well. It’s really lovely too.
Chris Simmance
It’s it’s kind of like you’ve you’ve helped to leave the place in a safe set of hands, even though it’s not yours anymore. It’s nice to see it still grows. Plastic and and and I guess the uh, the other part of all of. That is that. You know you you can feel proud of. What you’ve left? Behind does. That does that make sense? And and uh and. And and and like you say at the beginning it, you know, it isn’t necessarily about the money. And if you do go into selling an agency with a figure that you want to get, then it it’s going to hamper. The the exit is going to hamper the sales at the sell selling of the agency and you’ve gotta it’s gotta be at the right time for the for the agency and for for you, I guess.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, I think that I think that’s a important fact I. Think it’s really, really useful to. Have have a A. A some in. Mind. And I think there’s nothing wrong with wanting money at all or wanting to. The kind of success framework that’s usual society works by it’s. Nothing wrong with. That but it it makes the journey a little bit harder if you concentrate on that. Well, if you concentrate on building a truly amazing business that that looks. Feels different from others. That’s is really where the quality comes. And yeah, selling agents, that’s really good. It’s a lot harder, easier than selling an agency. Yeah, that’s just turns over.
Chris Simmance
Absolutely. And to your point about saying people can’t do something or you can’t do that knowing you personally, I know what you’re like when someone says you can’t do that, Lisa. And and I and I can and I can see how that and and just having looked at quite a lot of the things that they’ve did in the past, I I can see that that was part of the leadership approach that you took in that. How people, how people also have the same sort of mindset, and that did set you up for some great growth by the based on everything that you can.
Lisa Paasche
And and I think that one. Of the keys to like. You know, being able to do things that that people think it’s impossible isn’t really anything to do with what other people say is is how much you believe in yourself. And and that was very much a key of growing the teams and the agency as a whole was concentrating on getting. Getting people in a framework where they really believed in themselves and each other, which you know it shouldn’t matter. Like everyone else around you or or other agencies or or clients, say something if you think you believe that you can. You just do.
Chris Simmance
Yeah. And. And it’s often actually starting something is is is 90% of the of the task of actually getting it done and when someone says you can’t do it either you don’t try or you start doing it and you realise, OK, it isn’t as possible this way. But I now know another route or at least I know what isn’t possible. And I know that for myself, for sure.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, and and I think that’s also such a great characteristic of of people in the SEO industry is that.
Speaker
Oh yes.
Lisa Paasche
That’s kind of. Really, the DNA of of an SEO in the 1st place and getting to a dead end and finding another way and so. Yeah, I think.
Chris Simmance
It it’s it’s it’s there’s kind of the scientific method approach there. You don’t know it’s not possible until you can prove it’s not possible and if it isn’t possible, at least you’ve learned something along the way as well, which is always useful as well. So I guess if you could go back to when you founded Verve, is there something that you would if you could take a time machine? To go back, is there one thing that you would give yourself as a? Piece of advice.
Lisa Paasche
Yes, don’t take things so personally. I think one of the biggest challenges with. Being a leader. Is especially if you really care about what you’re building and you you put your all into it. It’s really challenging not to take things personally and and uh, not feel personally connected to it. But if your if your actual identity become. Your work then it becomes really hard once you have to to to take yourself out of it. And also, you know I people think that being being a friendly, nice kind of boss will is the the the right thing to do. But. It bringing up teams is very much. Like bringing up. Children, you need to help them have framework around and rules so that they feel safe and at the start I think I I mistook being being nice and friendly and and and friendships for leadership and and those really need to be different. You have to be OK with not being liked, not being. Not, not always being understood your way of doing things and and that I I’ve found really challenging and I I think if I if I could somehow get to myself at that very early stage and and say look that is the like the route of going down getting so connected to things that. That it becomes who you are and it’s gonna it’s gonna break you.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, uh, I mean, to all the people who are listening right now, who I ever employed. I’m sorry for doing that. Personally, I was terrible for taking things personally. Especially if you know if you have a bad day personally and then something professional happens and everything in your business is that when it’s yours, you know everything is personal in a sense it’s really hard to. Take a step back and remember that you’re the leader and you’ve got you’ve gotta follow the same vision and there’s sing to the values that you that you set everyone else. Time and and and I think, I think it’s it’s part part the part of the problem there and I don’t know what your thoughts are on this cause you you you know you you mentor people and it’s it’s very easy to be a good doer and then quite a lot of the doers start a business themselves an agency or whatever. But it’s really hard to learn. How to be a leader? And quite a lot of people start agencies off not being good leaders, but being good doers. And then it’s really hard to take a step back when someone else is doing something that isn’t exactly how you want it, or the result isn’t exactly how you want it, and you feel this little. I used to make it in my head. It was a bit like waves crashing over a rock. It just slowly eroded my my my ability to keep calm and and and and. And you’re spot on saying. Saying that.
Lisa Paasche
I yeah, I think that’s that’s very true for me as well. Like I have a very high. Expectations of myself and I think it is really important to know that people aren’t you and it doesn’t mean that it’s any worse or it’s bad in any way and and you need to let people make their own mistakes. But it can be really challenging. And I I was by no means. I am in charge of that in terms of like I I there’s so many things that I would do differently now, but I think I think all you can do is the best thing you can, but you have to concentrate on really making sure that this isn’t moving, that this isn’t. This isn’t you. Like, I think leadership is really important to know that that who you are as a person and a leader might be slightly different and that’s actually the opposite of what most people tell you is that they, they’re like, yeah. Yeah. Because you kind of have to.
Chris Simmance
It’s true, it’s not in the books.
Lisa Paasche
To to realise that if, if things are really difficult and that went through a really difficult period during COVID, which was my last year for earnout, and that was honestly the worst time in my career, probably in my life, in terms of my mental state and how hard things were. But everyone was so. Charged and never was so worried about everything, and he will come into situation where they are already triggered and worried. It is very. Easy to blame on the on the management or the leadership and you have to learn that. Because people will maybe project that, but you don’t need to take it in. Yeah. And. And so I think one of the biggest advice I would I would give to someone that are growing an agency and especially if they want to sell, it’s you have to get. Yourself a therapist.
Chris Simmance
I shouldn’t laugh, but that’s like the fifth or sixth time an agency owner on this podcast has said that and and and I’m only laughing because everyone agrees with you.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah. And it honestly it’s. I think it’s really hard to. With this, this without and and it would. Have been a lot worse for me. If I if. I hadn’t, and being aware of your cause, you’re gonna have to take it. Take the yeah. Of course, if if everyone is worried, everyone is scared and it is, it is quite our flight in in that happens in their brain without. You know, it’s not a conscious thing. And so making sure that you don’t take that illness, everything in your fault and it, it’s just really, really important.
Chris Simmance
Absolutely spot on. I think various different people need different levels of of of professional support, and I think that’s either every that’s everything from talking to your mum. Yeah, all the way through to professional therapy and everything in between, coaching, mentoring and so on. But I think there’s there’s something to be said and and and you’re right for kind of having something inside. Like a a mechanism where you can not detach but you can be aware that you are not the business and the business is not you, but you still need to be the right leader that that, that, that needs to be in the business. And I think I think that’s that’s quite powerful question though. If you did go back in time and give yourself that advice, would you listen to it?
Lisa Paasche
Probably not.
Speaker
We, we.
Lisa Paasche
I will say I was. A right cocky early 30 something so.
Chris Simmance
I don’t believe it for a secondly so. I have no I I I that nothing I know about you suggests that that to. Be true, I think. You probably really easy going and calm.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, that has never been been words described about me. It might be in the future.
Chris Simmance
Well, everyone’s on the journey one day, so.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, exactly.
Chris Simmance
You’ve you’ve built there. From zero up to 57, I think you say and and and then you got to the point. Uh, around exit. What is it that you kind of learned about the agency and and the and the growth trajectory that you were on that made you sort of decide this was the right time?
Lisa Paasche
So it was. It’s quite unusual actually, because in 2015 I I really shook up the agency and changed. What and and I I always knew that I wanted to build, to sell and and I’m not sure that my motivation at the start for that was it was money. I think it mostly was kind of. For for me. I grew up with both my parents being bankrupt, so not ever. Having had the security of money it. Was like a real, but then it.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, it’s a bit of a motivator.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, but it’s it’s evolved a lot, but. In 2015, as I say. And uh, the agency kind of turnover and profits and the results of what we’re doing was actually really by plummeting everywhere at that point, doing what we would then called content marketing, which was mostly writing content. And yeah, getting links and stuff, which was really slow and not very. Helpful. Yeah. And so I had to make a very difficult decision and I I made half nearly half no 3540% of the agency redundant.
Chris Simmance
Expensive as well, isn’t it?
Lisa Paasche
And I closed down what was called the content team and then then created, then started growing more of a production team for development and design. And then? Outreach, which is it? Slightly different to content marketing because the outreach people was more like a. Your journalistic.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, they know how to talk to the people they’re sending the emails to rather than yeah.
Lisa Paasche
And so and so from 2015 to when we sold, we we literally were on like. We are a profit had like half from the year before in 2015 and we trebled profit until 2017 when we sold and because we were on such, it was basically making that difficult decision that everyone hated me. More because it. Was wrong and obviously people had to leave and it was. Really. Really.
Speaker
Really tough.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, and but it was the right decision and and it it was that the the what allowed us to become the agency that we could be doing the great work winning the awards. And so by 2016 we already had we already had. It will come to us. And so, so actually Omnicom had already contacted us and was interested. I had to kind of pull them up because we weren’t really at the profit margin. I wanted to. Sell it and and and. Kind of then, uh and and I’ve worked, of course, going back to this and. The with the. Advisory team to to help the growth. Now they also became my advisor on the actual M&A, which was super useful, but I’m not sure that that they necessarily did that much in the the growth. Period. Yeah, it was all useful. So it wasn’t actually that long between 2000. 15 no real. Profit to talk about to actual enough to sell.
Chris Simmance
And and and the. The right so so in a. Sense at the point you got to, uh, a a, a good revenue and profit figure was the right time in terms of the, the the pivot between now and ready to sell. I’ve built to sell and I’m ready.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, yeah. And and to be honest, I think. The the biggest. Just sign for me that we’re ready. It’s like I think it was. It was 2015 when I looked for a head of operation. Someone that could do all the things that I wasn’t very good at. So I basically wrote down a spreadsheet of all the things that I did, and then I put out all the things that I knew I wasn’t good at. Or things I didn’t like and I made a job description of that and that’s how I found Bex, who then and then became my CEO. No. And you know the the one of the most important part of getting. Ready to sell? Is to be. Really honest with yourself or what you can do and what you should be doing and what. You should be doing and. The change from when I got her bored and her doing those things were what was my blind spots. Yeah, what’s what’s amazing. I could never have done this.
Chris Simmance
Absolutely. And I think the the sale figure and the earn out time make a big difference depending on how much you physically do in the business and how much needs to be handed over or how much is at risk. If you don’t hand over and things like that, so yeah, having the right operational lead in there. At the point of growth is is essential. Because you can’t be the visionary and the implementer all the time, you could be good at some of it, but not all of it. And like you say, splitting their dichotomizing your abilities between things you like and things you can do versus things you don’t really like and shouldn’t do is is key at any stage of agency growth. I think and and and as soon as you can afford it. One of the things that I’d always advise to an agency owner as soon as you can afford it, get someone in on an operational level, whether it’s at the start, a project manager that that you can upskill and and bring into into a a CEO level or something similar because it will pay for itself in dividends in the. Sure, whether it be systems, processes or sometimes, uh, I found this really hard. I don’t know about you, but being told no when something wasn’t necessarily feasible, being told no and having a good person you can trust to say This is why and you can kind. Of trust. Why it’s invaluable?
Lisa Paasche
Yeah. And also I think it’s really for me, it was really invaluable to have, you know, me and Bex were very different in the way we worked and. The way we thought, but. Our our values were identical. I would say like what we really think is important are our respect, honesty, UM and kind of the value system was exactly the same and and you need to be able to really trust someone to to kind of share that work as a. Us entrepreneurs and founders, I think that’s the biggest difference between entrepreneurs, CEOs and CEOs that have worked the way up as CEOs is that. You can’t take away that thinking way as an entrepreneur, which you, which is mostly there at 100 miles an hour, one to solve problems like big problems and and and go with it and be able to change and move and do things quickly. That that kind. Then it’s it’s kind of like the heartbeat of the of the A founding business. And having this year there. But I could also, you know it’s it’s very different to then being the CEO of an agency like for me when I was a CEO and I was part of Omnicom, they they felt like very different. Different jobs.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, I can imagine. I I I can imagine I and I think that. Your I guess your your mindset around the business has to has to shift slightly around the long term plans that you have personally and professionally. Uh, when you effectively got new leaders in, in, in the larger scale and and part of that merge in is is is key to getting it right. And obviously having the right mindset. This is key.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah. And I was totally unmanageable, so.
Chris Simmance
I I think I I can only imagine how I would have been in your in your shoes as well. Having exited the web development business that that that I had, I wasn’t, I was, I was terribly unmanageable and that was a small business with very few staff and and again, if you’re listening now, sorry about that. And so I guess all of. The stuff you did with with verb. All the way through and and going through the exit stage is is probably set you up massively well for for the agency coaching and mentorship that you do now. And do you do you? Do you feel that there’s there’s there’s things that you’ve learned throughout that journey that that you just couldn’t learn from a book in order? To help people. In a similar position to you used to be.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, absolutely. But. And. And weirdly, most people that come to me think that they want help with those things, like the processes and the, you know, what should we do in this scenario? What should we ask for what? What is this sale process? All those things. But it’s rarely that that ends up being what I help them with because. The the. Real the real the real challenge is is setting yourself up for that, that growth and and be the the keeper of everyone’s. Uh everyone’s goals and and ambition as well. And UM, yeah, so it’s so it’s it’s I do all of those things and and I think it’s very beneficial but mostly I. Think it is. Hugely beneficial, like having I have about I have five clients at. The moment and. And to be honest, I I think that’s. Almost as much as I I can take cause you only when you’re mentoring you are literally talking like I do. Like 3 hour sessions once a month with these people and you, it’s the space where you listen to them and feel their pain and their difficult the difficult challenges. But but it’s mostly about being able to to understand them. What most people want from a psychological point of view is being heard and leaders, because they’re the ones making the decisions they are heard, but they’re not heard from a personal point of view and what they feel because you can’t say that you can’t say like. Oh my God, I. Feel so upset about this? You can’t say that to all your employees because again, it’s like a parental situation. It’s not fair to tell your kids. All your problems.
Chris Simmance
Exactly. And and I think having had the experiences that you’ve had similar similar to me in the sense that if you don’t, if you haven’t lived through it, you can only have sympathy for someone’s problems if you have real empathy because you were there, you felt similar feelings, you had similar issues. And then it means that you actually do listen better. And I think I think, you know, listening to the real problem and then understanding through empathy, the problem that caused or behind the problem behind the problem, you can really get to the kernel of truth. The thing that really actually helps them to either you can either sort of coach them past the problem or mentor them into their own solution. And it really does depend on the context of the problem, but if you haven’t kind of had an experience similar to that, and you’ve just learned in a book how to be a. Coach then yeah, you, you. You’re you’re not necessarily, like you say, listening and hearing properly.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah. And I I think I think the the biggest challenge for people when they when they looking for a mentor is obviously looking for someone that’s uh, have done similar things. I think it’s very useful. But again, what I mostly do is not they. They tend to look for someone that could tell them stuff, but what? What I really do is help them question stuff and for them to come up with their own way of what they what they what is right for them because, you know, even if even if I’ve done what looks like exactly the same. Words and it is. It’s so individual because it’s all about people and agency isn’t an agency isn’t the same as another agency because it has the same amount of people and they do the same thing. All those individual makes that a completely different business. It’s terrorist it. It is a completely different business.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Lisa Paasche
So to be able to successfully really mentor and help people through something, you have to ask the right question so that they can come up with answer that is right for them. Yeah. And that’s that’s basically I think in my head mentoring is mirror. Going to help them get to that bit and and quite often CEOs and founders don’t have those people that they can do that with. And I also have like a very big interest within psychology and neuroscience and. I’m doing a lot of. Personal studies now, but also possibly starting a degree. In September. And it’s just so interesting to to to be able to help people. Uh, get more of their own ideas, their own thoughts, because it’s it’s often the insecurities that are keeping them from making the right decision because it’s a hesitation thing. So quite often the the right question. Is what will happen if you don’t do that rather than what will happen if you do do that.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, yeah. There’s like, a non judgmental curiosity that is required.
Lisa Paasche
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Chris Simmance
In in all of the the the years that you’ve been, you’ve been doing the, the agency running and all of the stuff with birth, the exit is is finalised now and obviously you’re working to help support people in uh who run agencies and other businesses to sort of mentor them into into the right sort of mindset and success and. What would you? If if I was. If I say for example a a potential agency owner of the future was listening, someone who is thinking about starting an agency or has literally just started an agency and what what would you tell them as from the coaching and mentor perspective as a piece of advice to take away?
Lisa Paasche
Concentrate on on making good teams and do great work and and make sure that you. You have other outlets for you. That I think will be the the summary. It’s difficult to say because again, it all depends on their thinking. But it’s gonna be a lot more fun than you think, and it’s gonna be a lot harder than you think.
Chris Simmance
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And well, thank you very much for coming along. Lisa, it’s been great. To have you on the podcast.
Lisa Paasche
All right.
Chris Simmance
And then our next podcast, we have a different agency owner, director telling us their story, so. In until then, enjoy.