V.O. Guy
Hello and thanks for coming along to, …and we have an office Dog, the digital agency podcast where we talk to agency owner directors. And learn more about. What makes them tick from the things that make them similar to the things they’d rather have known sooner, where they’ve had success. And where they’ve learned some hard lessons. All will be revealed. With your host, Chris Simmance, the agency coach, and he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. OK, so let us begin. Over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Thanks, voice over guy and on the podcast they’ve got Aman from Digiruu. How are you doing?
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Thank you. Uh, not not too bad at all. I was just telling you before we started. I don’t know if I’ve got COVID or not, so I’m just staying a bit wary right now, but I’m absolutely fine. Thank you. How about yourself?
Chris Simmance (Host)
Likewise, I don’t think thankfully I don’t think mines COVID. I just spent an entire week on on the ski slopes in the mountains, so you know, minus 10 for a week +2 aeroplane rides and lots and lots of human beings. I think it’s probably where I where I’m getting my my lurgee from, but you stay on the other side of the screen. Please mate.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
I will absolutely. I wish I could say the same thing, but actually I’ve just been working very hard and stuck at my desk for the last week and then some random lurgy has just creeped up into my system. So yeah, I wish I could do the same but.
Chris Simmance (Host)
It happens. It happens. We’ve got a weekend coming up so you can chill. Catch your breath. So. So tell us first of all about digirolomo and also the name like. Like I said, just before the call, I keep one to say digeridoo. I know it’s not that, but explain explain the name and also what what you guys do. If anyone’s listening, who’s in the market for what you’re after, this is your opportunity to sell, sell, sell.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
We know, funnily enough, I’ll say to someone the other day, we don’t have any sales people. We actually don’t. Our approach is not actually very much sell, sell, sell. The way we look at it is that. The If we give value to people at whatever stage of the sales cycle, they’re more likely to want to work with us. We’ve never ever been that pushy kind, but just to go back to your question, did you really is a mobile app development company based in London. We develop apps for startups and businesses and enterprise like we just had our 8th birthday on the. 28th of January something for eight years birthday. Thank you very much. It was.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Changed in the last eight years significantly as well.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Yeah, it’s it’s absolutely crazy that not only that we’ve beaten statistic. That, you know, night and the businesses fail after three years or or whatever. Is and that the five years as well that 90 times that of businesses don’t turn profit until five years. So we’ve beaten some statistics, which is very cool. The name is one of my favourite stories, so I’m not actually Australian as what a lot of people think they think I’m Australian. Hence the name. Did you do or did you or whatever it? Is. Yeah, and. I’m very much into positive thinking. I’m very much into always moving forward and always thinking about how you can move forward no matter. How scared you are. Whatever. The kangaroo is one of the few animals in the. World, that is. Incapable of moving backwards, it always moves. Forward no matter where it is. If it’s in unknown territory, if it’s scared, if it’s dark, it always just moves forward and it always takes. That feels like a.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Veil. I mean, I’m going to put my my. Cynicism hat on and say that feels evolutionarily, really bad. It just hops into fires and off cliffs and.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Stuff, I mean. I mean, I think it could, it could. It could be side steps to turn around and it can’t like take a step backwards. And yeah, I just really loved it then obviously digital because we did digital products and the digital kangaroo and then had did you book came about and also the.com was available as well so I mean.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Awesome. I mean, it’s when you’re when you’re starting a new business in the digital agency space digital, anything space, the first thing you do is you got like one column of all of the names you quite like. Then you cut it down because the dot Coms aren’t available. Then you cut it down because it’s on already on Companies House and like you, you end up with. Something that you know it usually it comes out alright, but thankfully you did it eight years ago and if someone was coming up with a a name like this now they’d have to add an extra you or something like that in order to, you know, have the havethe.com and the Companies House reference. So eight years is is is a good amount of time to to be running an agency so. What would you say would be one of the most significant or memorable successes that you felt that you guys have had since you since you started?
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Yeah, you know this. Is it’s such? An interesting one to answer when I do answer this to you know other startups. I advise and and when I appear on podcasts, it’s honestly when we learned how to mark it honestly. That was yeah, most simplest thing ever. It was when a lead generation system started working and the reason why I can’t. I like stressed. That’s one of our big. Biggest successes is because you’re one of business. We kind of just rely on our contacts, friends and family, you know. Yeah. And there’s no could say, look who is anyone else. That’s interested in what we offer. Year 2 we we. Use. What are some of our contacts in in the industry to get some clients some contracts? Year three, we kind of. Realised this is like this is not scalable like whatever we’re doing is not scalable. Referrals simply aren’t scalable. Yeah. And building a lead generation machine when there. Is so much noise. On the Internet. There’s so many gurus, there’s so many people saying, you know, use our system. You have 50 leads come into. Your inbox I mean. I was all new to this and I’ll tell you about my background. Later on, but I was all new to. This because I. Was thinking, OK, if you get lead. It that means. That somebody that’s ready to work with you. But actually then you have scales of lead, whether they’re hot, cold, or whether they’re aware of you, you. Know companies that. Promise leads coming in that could just be someone who you jump on a call, but they’re like, OK, tell me what you do and it’s they’re not ready to work with you. Building a lead generation machine was probably. The the most hardest thing that we’ve ever had to do, and it’s still evolving and it’s still difficult. But getting that. Freak that that influx of leads coming in weekly. It’s just completely changed. Our business and honestly, yeah, it’s our biggest success.
Chris Simmance (Host)
It’s not working with the client. It’s our biggest success. I I I I I mean in the 59 episodes of this podcast, this you’re the first person to say that as this is their biggest success and I think. First of all, that says honestly that’s a, you know, meaningful for you. Guys but. It is. It’s amazing how very little you often put in terms of value on some of the really hard stuff, and sometimes it’s it’s strategic planning, sometimes it’s SOP’s and deliverables. But sometimes it’s something which actually feeds your cash flow. Leads your business and it. It’s not an easy thing to remember because it’s such a once it’s running, it’s it’s. It’s kind of. It’s sitting in the background, but it isn’t. It’s something which which really does generate the businesses future kind of sitting on idle in the background, if that makes sense so. What was the what? What was the the key realisation was it was it like you say, you know, referrals weren’t gonna be the thing to scale. Did you have a? Did you have a a magic number of the distance that you wanted to hit and you just realised that that was? Where you were going to get it from or.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Yeah, it it really came down to the fact of. Referrals simply aren’t scalable. They they’re great, don’t get me wrong, they’re great lead generation tactic. You know, it all depends on the volume of people. You’re working with at the time, and you know. Those referrals? Here’s the other thing as well. Mobile app development is already so niche in itself, and eight years down the line and we are still at a point of time where we’re telling businesses you need to have a mobile app and it it takes me back to the days of when you’re telling businesses you need to have a website now it’s not. Kind of thing. If you start a new business, you have to have a website like there’s no question about it. Yeah. Now we’re still in that period of. Time where people are. Like, well, do we need a mobile app?
Speaker
Do we need to have a mobile?
Aman Birdi (Guest)
App blah blah blah and. I’m sitting here like it. Look 5 to 10 years. You gonna? Need one anyway. Like I’m telling you now it’s gonna happen and. Getting that from referrals and then having to go through that kind of convincing process again, it just wasn’t a reliable source like we could win some, we could lose some. If we could have a lead generation system where we can actually measure, you know, the percentage of conversion, the percentage of proposals or all of that stuff, if we can like measure each stage of the sales cycle, the only can we improve our sales cycle. So we’re, you know, in good numbers from our our our leads that were coming. In, but how can we get it so that we’re getting that constant cash flow, which enables us to grow the business? And honestly, that that was the biggest game changer for. Me because this is the. One of four businesses that I’ve run before, so yeah, this one was like, Oh my God, this thing is working.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, that was and and and it’s washing. It’s washing his own face, so to speak. It brings its own needs in it’s it’s it does does the does what you need it to do at that point you can you can focus on building at that point not as app but building the business. So if you went back just at just over 8 years ago before you started the business. And proof into the ether came modern day. You what? A piece of advice would modern day you give pass to you.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Stop thinking one to three years. Think 10 years. Absolutely. Including me, we overestimate what we can do. In a year. But we underestimate what we can do. In 10 years, I would a hundred thing about my younger self. I wouldn’t say think more positively or keep pushing or anything like that. I would honestly think think 10 years, think you’re thinking in a year that you can do all of this is unrealistic. But if you think in 10 years, can you achieve this? If you said to someone, can you get a million in 10 years? 90% of the time, they probably think well, if I put my whole effort into it, I could get a million in 10 years. And could you get a million in one year? It’s not impossible, but it’s hard. I would say to my younger self 100% think 10 years all the time and I think having thought 10 years. What about? Maybe it’s a three-year Mark. I first of all, I wasn’t disappointed. I was like, OK, we’ve got a 10 year plan. I know what that plan looks like. I know what, 10 years we’re probably going to feed us to sell the company and it’s all going to plan so far. And I can’t tell you how relaxing and stress free that is to think 10 years. Not that you have time. It’s just that. You have.
Chris Simmance (Host)
You can make strategic decisions that will facilitate that 10 year plan exactly. So I mean a lot of the agencies that I work with, once we’ve built a strategy, even if it’s just three years into the future, because often when you’re coming from zero strategy and you’re five years in and you’ve been firefighting hamster Wheeling for quite a while, a three-year strategy is is a good time. Verizon, to kind of start going ah, now I can think 10 and that first kind of it’s now on paper it’s there is a direction we’re heading in. We know who we are, we know where we’re going. We know what we’re doing. We know where how we’re. There anything that comes from the outside that, that, that that happens that you can’t control, it’s just a course correction. It’s a lot less stressful if you know where you’re aiming for. You know if you’ve got. If you’re always try it. I like analogies. So. You’re a you know you’re a ship’s captain. As the leader of the business. You said we’re sailing over X distance and Y this area. Things that happen along the way your crew know where you’re going and know where they’re what they’re part of. So they. Turn this. Do this. Move the not very good at not turn move.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
The wheel ship’s.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Wheel. I don’t know, but they’ll. They’ll they’ll know where they’re going. They’ll feel more comfortable. You’ll feel more comfortable. And then if there is a big storm that happens at least at the very least, everyone knows what they’re working towards aiming for and. Having a a long time horizon makes that an awful lot less stressful and an awful lot more comfortable when things don’t go to.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Absolutely, 100% agree and and that’s the thing as well. It’s like having a. Vision for your company once. Everybody knows the direction you’re going in. I mean, look at. This everybody always wants to be part of. Something bigger, whether it’s your team, whether it’s your. Clients and as soon as you communicate, you know where you want to go. Where you want to take this company? People aren’t likely to help you build it because they want to. Be upon something bigger as. Your team, that’s your clients. You’ve guys got this journey. You know even. If the tiniest thing, if we said to our clients that look honestly, we want to be #1 in London, you know, like we want to be, we’re not gonna get there with. People like you and people like you who are building these awesome products and we build them for you. It’s like, look, we’re not gonna go there. We’re not gonna get there without you. We’re gonna put everything into this product. Like, for example, we only take on 3 to 6 * A. Year we’re just like, look, we wanna be a small boutique. Your app development company and we want to be the absolute best. Like we don’t touch anything else apart from mobile app development. Because we’re experts here. But we’re good at. Their stuff, and like I said, people are likely to help you build it and take you where you want to go when you communicate their plans with its vision or whether it’s your 10 year strategic plan. It just helps so much. And honestly, if I could tell my younger self. That I could save a. Lot of heartbreak and ignite.
Chris Simmance (Host)
So you thinking, why is my company not working? Well, the the irony is obviously you do look back and you go what I really do wish that I’d have thought this a long time ago. But I often say running an agency is the most expensive MBA you’ll ever have. The amount of punch you get more punches in the face running an agency than you do as a professional boxer. And if you didn’t get those punches in the face or you didn’t have those, like, massive, like pains, you know whether it be financial or personal or professional pains and stresses, I don’t think that that long term future horizon. Would feel as sweet. And I don’t think that you would necessarily make the right decisions if you if everything was easy it you know, you you wouldn’t necessarily get there, I don’t know.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
No, no, I 100% agree. Again, it just sounds, you know I’ve had business. Mentors throughout digital as. Well, you know about business coaches. They’ve all told me not to do things, and I still did them. One of them said, don’t. Work as your sole market as startups being startups. And I said no, it’s fine. We’re great with startups. It’s like, yeah, they have no money. I said no, they do.
Chris Simmance (Host)
They’ve got plenty of money. It’s how. Long. They can keep it. That’s always.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
The problem right exactly and. You know I they’ve given me so much advice. And I didn’t do it. I didn’t take that advice, not looking at paying these guys and I wasn’t taking their advice. And I think it is just in that human nature you kinda have to go through your own mistakes. You have to take the punches and the bruises to know that whatever decision you’re making next is not only the right one, but one that you’re not repeating a same mistake. You just absolutely, it’s so cliche. You do have to go through it and. I think what it does. I think what? It does, which is most important. It builds up a level of resilience. In you as. An entrepreneur, not as a business. It builds up a level of resilience in you, and when it comes to any little obstacle or hurdle that comes your way in running a business, you’re just a lot more calm and connected like well, you know what? We’ve been through the rubbish like places before. We’ve done the rubbish thing. We’ve made terrible decisions. Been through all of that and it’s like, no, this is a problem. Let’s calmly deal with it. And I think that resilience is so important. Again, sounds cliche, but even on our podcast, when we spoke to the founder of Reebok founder Shazam, all of these. And they’ve all said the same thing as that. You need to go through these life lessons, these business lessons, they they shape you as absolutely, absolutely.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And and like to your point about, you know, not listening to some of the coaches and the mentors that you worked with, I I, I I genuinely think that oftentimes there are, I know that you listeners. Can’t see us right now, but I’ve got the standard pile of books behind me from from for my backdrop. A lot of coaches will rely on that kind of content and that book stuff, and they’ll say you’re in X situation Y advice is appropriate. The the the individual moment and the individual need and the individual requirement are always are always different so. By the book the answer of uh don’t touch startups because they don’t have money isn’t wrong, but it isn’t right for you. And and that’s often what gets missed with a lot of these things and a bit like, you know, working with, working with any service provider. If you if you get bitten and you don’t want to go. Back into that kind of. Type of thing and. I typically find that the best results that I have working with agencies is when they’re ready, and that’s usually, sadly when they’ve had a few punches in the face, so to speak, and and and. And that’s when they they go, OK. I’ve worked it out. I’m not a superhero. I can’t do it all kind of fed up with. The hamster wheel. Definitely know this is a success material, but I just need a mirror to hold up my ideas to. I need someone to help guide in the right direction, not tell me what to do. I do me in the right way and and and sometimes you find it sometimes you don’t so. Over the last eight years or so, is there something that you did like really early on that? You feel has kind. Of set you up for success.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Very good question and I can’t think of anything but a generic answer and it really Eric is fine. Honestly, it really is just keep going forward. It really is that, like I remember like I. Made a promise to myself when things weren’t working out so well. And this has evolved, by the way. And the first part of that is every day just do one. Thing, we’re just going to take the. Business forward, it might be. Setting up the the Twitter handle, it might be just sending one tweet, it might. It might be something so small or it might be something huge. But I think it was just that moment that every day I’m going to do one thing which takes the business forward and it has to be something that takes the business forward. And I think it was because at the time I was learning about the stock market and compounding and all of this stuff, you know, you know, small steps make a difference. And this has evolved now and. It’s evolved to the point that. I’ve actually had to customise and create my own diary. You’ll you’ll never believe this.
Chris Simmance (Host)
You developed your own diary because you know.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
I literally created my own diary and and people listening won’t be able to see this. But Long story short, I literally created my own diary which says and I’m saying earlier three things are achieved today and that’s it. I said I’m only going to achieve it evolved from one thing a day and now it’s evolved 2. I’m only going to do 3 meaningful things a day. Yeah, and and that’s it and I just, I have to do it it. It doesn’t matter what it is. It’s now etched into my memory. I have to do 3 meaningful things today to push the business forward. And that that’s. Can’t say it’s all. The success is all done to that. But I can say it’s certainly helped.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Well, there’s, you know, the the the, UM, the Greek story, the man pushing the. Rock up the hill. Wish I remember the name of it now. I’m gonna sound like an idiot. Everyone’s gonna give me nonsense for this on Twitter now. The the momentum you always pushing the rock up the hill when you get to the top, there’s always more or you’re always back at the bottom when you’re when you’re running an agency. Doing one thing one like say 1 meaningful thing or three meaningful things a day that keeps the momentum going forwards. If you stop intirely. Then some it’s harder to start again, not necessarily to go forwards, but it’s harder to start again. You know you’re you’ve got a a weight that has no momentum to it. And if you think of like the the the the task list is never ending that you know you don’t take everything off and go call sit back and then and relax all the works done Now there’s always something else. So having that kind of mindset of, OK, that I’m feeling a bit rough today or I’ve had a really long month or a really long week or whatever. And I can’t do anything. I’ve I’ve got two calls to make today. One is to the bank and one is to a potential client. I’m going to get those done and that will be the thing that keeps it going. And and then you don’t feel as guilty because obviously you’re paying other people’s salaries and you don’t want to think. If I’m sitting there and doing nothing all day and the business then folds up, I can’t say I’ve tried. Everything guys but. You’ve got you’ve got that momentum continued.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
And absolutely, it’s just small. Steps like even when I advise businesses I. Just say to the most like. There is this whole culture which is around which says if you’re an entrepreneur, you need to wake up at 4:00 in the morning, have a nice bath after your ice bath to think about how grateful you are for life and whatnot. After you’ve done that, you wanna work and you’re not going to stop working till 11:00. O’clock you have. Six cups of coffee in your day. I was like, look. And I told him I was like, look. Does that work for you and not all the times it’s know or they try it and you know stop. Yeah, it happens for about. Three days and. I was like, well, it it doesn’t work out for you. You have to find what works for you. Like don’t. And and this is so important as well. Stop focusing on other people’s journeys. Just focus on your own journey and find out what works for you. Like my three things just happen to work for me, it might not work for another business owner. It might not work for another agency owner. It. Yeah, so happens. It works for our business and my lifestyle as well. And and like I said, but you have these other staff funders who are constantly looking about what they should be doing. To telling them, you know the hustle culture. And I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it. If you worked 12 hours a day. Amazing but is. It really long. Term, I don’t think so. Like I made the decision when I turned 30. I know I’m 30. I’m 32 now. I make it sound like I’m the oldest person. Say hey, old, I know, but I made the decision when I was 30. Sorry. And I said, you know what? I can’t have a life like this where I’m. Working 12 hours. A day when I eventually I want to. Get married and have kids. I just can’t have that lifestyle. I can’t. I can’t do it. I need to find a. Different way to have a. Similar to a 96 lifestyle way. I can spend some of my kids in the evening time with my wife in the evening etcetera and have my Saturdays and Sundays. I needed to find that and that’s just it. Just so happened that. This point for. Me and I think if other entrepreneurs just spend the time to find what works for them, I think they will find success in whatever they do as long as they find a way to get those small steps and that momentum going.
Chris Simmance (Host)
I mean, I was going to ask what your one piece of advice might be, but I feel like we might repeat ourselves now, so. Genuinely, if if someone’s listening to this podcast Now, what? What? What would you advise? If they’re if they’re just about to start a business just about. To start an. Agency or indeed have just started. What would what one piece of advice would you would you probably. In front of them.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Yeah, you know, I. I have three pieces of advice. We’ll keep this for the podcast because you know, when I do talks, you know, outside of whatnot, and I get asked, you know, which closing remarks always end my presentation with closing remarks and leave it with three pieces of advice. And out of the three, my favourite one is. Wherever you are right now, I don’t know if you said this quote by the way, so whoever thinks says I’m gonna said it. I didn’t say I got it from someone. But this has got me through a lot and it’s wherever you are right now is exactly where you need to be to learn whatever it is you need to learn to get the. Business that you want. So wherever you are right now, people will think, oh, I don’t know how to run build a website or I don’t know how to. Do the generation. I don’t know how to. I don’t even know how to set up a domain, e-mail, whatever. It is. It’s like you’re you are exactly where you need to be to learn where everything. You need to learn because when then you start comparing yourself to your friends who have a Lamborghini or your friends who have. Like this gigantic house. There’s no don’t worry about them wherever you are. Is where you need to be and that’s. Like my favourite piece of advice.
Chris Simmance (Host)
It is. I mean, it’s a lovely piece of advice and and also often it’s very easy to forget that these days because of social media making it really easy for, you know, to to, to have that kind of FOMO style type thing also where someone else is isn’t necessarily where you need to be. And you. You might see their Lambo or their nice house or whatever, and you might think well. In 10 years time, my plan doesn’t include that. So am I wrong? And the answer is often no. You you don’t want it. That’s not where you’re where you’re headed. And and and I think you know where you where you are at any point in your in, in your professional career, whether you’re an employee or an employer and you run businesses. That is where you’re supposed to be. Is a really nice way to. It’s a really nice way to look at it all. So thank you for that last piece of advice. It’s been wonderful having you on the podcast. Thanks very much for coming.
Aman Birdi (Guest)
Thank you so much for having me, appreciate.
Chris Simmance (Host)
It and on the next podcast we’ll be talking to another agency leader to hear about their lessons and things that they want to tell us about where they are. So thanks very much.