V.O. Guy
Hello and thanks for coming along to …And we have an office dog, the digital agency podcast where we talk to agency owner, directors and learn more about what makes them tick from the things that make them similar to the things they’d rather have known sooner where they’ve had success. And where they’ve learned some hard lessons. All will be revealed. With your host, Chris Simmance, the agency coach, and he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. OK, so let us begin over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Thanks voiceover guy and on the podcast today we’ve got Carl Hewitt, co-founder of Hewitt Matthews. How are you doing?
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Yes, very well, very well. How are?
Chris Simmance (Host)
You not too bad at all. Not too bad at all. We were just talking about how sunny is in Portsmouth, where you guys are based.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Yeah, it’s not too bad today. It’s not too bad. There was a a light frost this morning, but it’s been like a a Christmas winter day down here, where you up in London?
Chris Simmance (Host)
Are you up in London looking after all the suits whilst you’re looking after all the wellies as you said earlier?
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
That’s it. That’s it.
Chris Simmance (Host)
To try, let’s say I. I mean I I I used to. I used to love those days walking through the woods, walking through the fields. But now you walking through the tube, it’s not a little less friendly, but it that way. So. So. Oh, tell us. Tell us a little bit about you at Matthews. Who are you? What do you do? What? What do you want to be famous for? What are you famous for?
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Yeah, of course. So we’re a paid media and web agency. So we focus on paid social paid search and then we have the other half of the business which is website design and development and we’ve worked in a wide range of sectors over times. I’m sure a lot of agencies have where, you know, listening to it to the podcast as well. A lot of agencies to seem to take on everything in the early days. Yeah, I’m really good at these two or three things. Why am I taking all the other stuff? So we’re starting to really narrow that down and niche further and we are showing a kind of best performance in insurance specifically being to see. So you know kind of automotive or home insurance. And selling policies for businesses there, and especially improving that user journey for the sort of up and coming younger generations who maybe first start buyers to try and resonate with them better because they want everything yesterday and a lot of years gone and give it to you and through six working. Days. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, we all.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Work cognise that. So. So how Long’s the agency been going?
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
So we’ve been going for just over six years now, I believe. And we started in, in July, back then when we were in college together recently, I think it was 201670, so.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Feels like a long time ago.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
It does, and it flies by. I don’t know about you. But it’s. I’ve got. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, I feel very old these days. And so so you guys did the whole like kind of start from the garage when you were, when you when you still in education style kind of thing, didn’t you?
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. We started in. In the college, actually, they very kindly found us a little room which was disused and we figured out why. Pretty quickly when we saw the ceiling wasn’t quite attached to the wall. In the there and stuff like that. But that was our first base and. Yeah, we started. With no experience, no network, no clients, so the back foot, but it was there.
Chris Simmance (Host)
But how cool does it feel to like be where you are now? You know, as many clients as you’ve got lots of lots of, you know, good proof of of of value that you’ve delivered over the last 6-6 ish years. And that’s pretty cool. When you look back. I I remember that. I know that feeling. Yeah. No, you’re absolutely right. It’s. It’s so good to know and I think.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
What I love about this one is is looking at the clients who have been. With you for a long time and. And the way their business and life has changed as well, you know we we’ve got clients who came. To us with. This kind of leisure centres. Had one or two at the start. They’ve just opened another one and then another. One and then you know they’re they’re just expanding. Expanding and our work is what’s doing that, and I loved that. And that’s really, really cool.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That’s awesome. So what do you think’s been? Like one of the most one of the biggest successes that you’ve had since you guys started the agency together?
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
That’s a really good question, and there’s been a few, I think most recently we we’ve just been shortlisted for a development project that we did, which is. Been really, really interesting. More on the not-for-profit side where we’re working with universities in the UK and refugees to the UK to give them access to higher education and. It’s been an incredible process. It’s 3 charities teamed up to to get this platform built and we did it for. Them and we’ve just had like Oxford uni sign up to it and some really big names who are now putting the opportunities on the platform. And I love that because that’s going to genuinely change your life, you know? When, when, yeah. And and need that support. On the on. The paid media side, there’s been a few again. In the insurance base, we’ve had an excellent sort of project piece of work with one of the leading gadget insurers where we just for years they had this set number that was kind of their limiting factor at their CPA and we came in and managed to drive that down pretty significantly by about 2530% from what they thought was their lowest they could reach. And and that was really exciting. And that generated them. A lot more revenue for the same spend and so growth and profitability and you can really track it with that.
Chris Simmance (Host)
So. So I mean that is a great success. And forgive me, I’m not expecting you to give us the secret sauce. How you did that. But when you’re trying to run an agency, I’m I I see lots of digital agency leaders who sort of say, you know, we’re different to everyone else and we can do better than everyone else. But then quite a lot of the time that I hear similar conversations where you like, for example, you just said we dropped the CPA really, really high really well. And but why aren’t why? What did you do differently, and what made you different that made that possible? If someone else had spent so long on Earth like a ceiling, so to speak?
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Yeah. And I I think that’s. It’s a very good observation of of agency world in general, and I think a big part of that is because it nine times out of 10, everyone’s playing with the same. Look, cards in their hand. It’s just more or less how you order them and and how. You apply those and. I think that’s really the big thing is. Sometimes it it. Is a case of a fresh pair of eyes. Just see something differently and we work very collaboratively with the team that already in House. On our approach to that and saying, have you tried this? What? Again, there’s new. New techniques and marketing. Strategies and features coming out on a lot of. Platforms and I think again being in. The forefront of those understanding had to had to use them as soon as. Possible, but again. I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily a differentiating factor, I think. The big thing is how you apply those. Those given that playing field.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah. I I I think it’s it’s quite right and and you know most digital agencies realistically it’s a formula business you know people. In techniques standard operating procedures and client support value money out and but, but there is that application of that that that is interesting to me. I find it quite interesting having spoken to so many agency leaders who all say. Results driven, strategic focus or whatever that might be and almost all the time, if you like, you say it’s the same set of cards that everyone’s got so. You know when. When that happens, I I find it interesting to to. Hear we’re different. We’re different. But you know, like you say, you you just sort of put your. Money where your mouth is literally.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Yeah, exactly. And I think listening to what of your your previous episodes the other day and went out on a on another Chris walking bausman and there was a a piece in there around specialisation. And I think. This is the other thing is a lot of people will say they’re specialists by working with, you know, accountants or whatever it may be. But actually there’s a lot more that you need to drill that into in. That in terms of, well, we’re working with accountants who advise on specialist tax problems for high network people who are based in London who want to maximise tax efficiency. They’ve got 16 incomes and really try and. Like, really pinpoint exactly who. Your clients are so that there’s. Almost none of. Them and there’s like a really few select people and then grow back out again because you’ll still get that accountancy generalist business, but at least you’ve got a focus. Yeah, totally agree. Focus is one thing that their agency leaders often lose very quickly because.
Chris Simmance (Host)
We need to pay the bills, so if you if you could go back, say six years or so when you’re in your in your your strange little room in college and and you could talk to your your younger self and your younger and your younger Co founders or your old you Carl appear out of nowhere and go oh. Since I’ve got some advice. For you and what one piece of advice would. You would you give yourself.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
It’s I think personally for me, something we used to be very good at. And then as you say, because you gotta pay the bills because you’ve got to. Keep the business and not rock the boat. Sometimes when you’ve got salaries and bills to pay is just keep innovating, keep taking risks and don’t let section be the enemy of of good. You know if you’ve got something that you. Think has legs. Just do it and and and run with it and learn something from it. And I think for a few years in. The middle there, we kind of got a little bit safe. And we were doing what was working and. We were just sort of beating the same drum because it was. It was safe and reliable and. Now I want us to do things differently and again apply those cards in a way that we wouldn’t have done before because the risk reward wasn’t there, but. It’s it’s something that I think a lot of people fall victim to. You get comfortable and and don’t get comfortable. Yeah, I think comfort is often the.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Enemy of growth usually. And also, comfort comes often comfort comes before the fall that you didn’t even notice because you’re so comfy. Do you think you’d listened? Would you? Would you listen to that advice at the time? I think if I’d.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Have known that I would have been more wary of myself falling into that trap because it’s interesting. Don’t you don’t wake up one day and suddenly think no more risk. I’m done. Kind of. You just evolve into this kind of like. No. Do you know what? I’m I’m not gonna pay £20 to go to that event. I don’t think cause that’s £20 I could save and then you kind of just order and before you know it, you’re not spending money on new tools or training or and you get into this rut of just working with techniques that were valid. Three or four years ago, and I think again. That’s another point you will you. Will question around what makes agencies different is. How often they’re evolving those techniques and reviewing their standard operating procedures.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And yeah, one thing I love doing when I’m when I’m working with a new agency to to, you know, to help kind of guide a a growth process is this it’s it’s almost like a a take. 10 Steps back and look at yourself like there’s write everything down what you are, but it all on a big wall kind of thing and step back and go. Is this you? Are you supposed to? Yeah, uhm, could you be making more? Could you be doing better? Could you do less of this? And and so on. And often the the outcome is, Yep, we could do more. We could do better. We should do better. And then it builds. This is the first steps into your process to to grow.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
I think that’s that’s. Such a skill to have as well is. He is well, two skills almost. That, one that you’re saying there of step back and look at your own agency very objectively and sort of say look, imagine this faceless people who have come to you. With an agency. And this is the facts. Is that a good agency? Yeah. But then also that ability. Zoom in and out. So like, yes, you’re having a really bad Tuesday and it’s been an awful start to the day and whatever. Whatever you’ve lost the client, but zoom out your strategies in place. It’s still running the year ahead will be fine if you keep up these consistent things you beat Target last year and and just be able to kind of zoom in and out on. And what’s important at the? Time is quite true as well.
Chris Simmance (Host)
With a with a fully formulated proper strategy that’s got numbers in it that’s got measures of success. It’s really easy at that point to take a punch in the face on a Monday and be and and by Monday afternoon be fine. Kind of go. I know where we’re going. We’re still on target for that thing. This doesn’t change the big, big picture. I’m, I’m. I’m going to change how I feel about this thing. So. Is there something that? Over the course of the last 6. Years that you kind of. When you realised what it was, you immediately went oh ****, and stopped doing it.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
That’s, yeah. I wonder. I haven’t thought about that before.
Speaker
- Some of them.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
We need to stop doing. I think one thing we were doing a lot was with our reporting, we hadn’t automated. We were so against automation, automation and reporting because we thought it wasn’t going to be. Bespoke enough, in-depth enough, or and valuable enough. Your client and we were like, well, we can’t write. Out pages and pages every day. And we don’t want to send an automated PDF. So we started doing video reports because you could do them conversationally and. Turn them up. And we started doing that a few years ago and then I realised actually quite a few other agencies. Started doing that. And and that’s been a real game changer and stopping writing for hours on end about the data and talking about it is actually.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Quicker. Yeah, I I think as well as so essentially what you did was you realised that through. An element of laziness you didn’t want to write too much, but also because of that, I mean, we’re all the same in digital marketing. We want to find the the the simplest route for most things you you kind of work worked out the right way of communicating to people, and that’s often how you keep clients, isn’t it, you know, communicate the right thing in the right way. And they’ll understand it. They don’t have to understand digital marketing. They just have to understand what it’s done for them in some senses.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Yeah, and that’s that’s another big. Thing that again I feel is often overlooked, especially at proposal stage and and then. Going forward in. That account management is. What level, in the nicest way is the client? Because if your clients run PPC campaigns and those Google ads inside out, then fine. You know, talk to them about the scripts you’ve got running in their account and why that’s important and. The bid adjustment and how? Real time bidding works compared to manual CPC or whatever, you know? Yeah. But if they don’t understand that you need to then change how you’re talking and be quite a a chameleon in those situations and say. The clicks went down because of XYZ and that’s why that works and as long as they can bring that to the board, you know they’re happy and the numbers are right. You’ve just got to be able to to translate. It in in in.
Chris Simmance (Host)
A few instances, yeah, and often it’s real time translation as well, because there’s more than one person asking the same question in different ways. What do you think’s been one of the like the hardest lessons that you guys have have have learned, but something that’s probably put you on a good trajectory for now?
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
I think one of the. Hardest things for both. Reese and I was when? We started the agency. We were. The the specialist and the company. That’s what we did. We knew. It inside out and for me. You know, my role is very much. I have to be out of the. Office as much. As possible. That’s of all, almost the metric is if Carl’s in the office, there’s an issue you need to be about. Seeing people and and being at things because. We’re trying to find the people. That we can work best with and and help. And so. Basically what I mean is I then become less of an expert at Google ads or at social ads for development and design. And then it’s kind of a strange situation where somebody, how does you know performance Max do real time bidding, you know how does it get that data? And analyse it.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And I’m like pretty sure Google just guesses I’m. Gonna say out loud and I’m.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Like I don’t know anymore. I’m going to have to come back to you from from Steve or Chris or someone will. Give me the information, but they’re the account specialists and the the people running PC day-to-day and I think it’s understanding that that’s the full time role and you. Top line. You could have a conversation about its value and how it works to extend. And that’s been quite a shift for me because I I love, I’m a nerd. I love to know everything but. I’ve gotta be out. And and and talking.
Chris Simmance (Host)
There’s only so much you can do. There’s only. So much you can do there. Is there is. So if there’s someone listening to the podcast now who’s maybe they’re at college, maybe they’re just starting out. Maybe they’re thinking about starting an agency. What? One piece of advice. Based on you know the experience of of both of you, would you give them what? What piece of advice do you think they they take the? Most from you.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
I think personally my biggest piece of. Advice would be. Just look at the situation you’re in. It’s so unique compared to the rest of the world at the moment. You have no ties, no responsibility financially. You probably living at home. You know you’ve got the perfect setup to take a risk and start an agency. The yeah. The worst comes to worst. You’ll be the same as you were right now this. Second, yeah, don’t think that’s that bad. So if I were you, I’d I’d just go for it. Just get started, get learning. And just get out there and find some clients. And then don’t put it off like this situation won’t last forever. So I think make the most of where you are at the moment.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, make make the most of the opportunities you’ve got. I mean, regardless, I guess of your current circumstance, whether you are young and in college or living at home and whatever. But like any opportunity. The that allows you to do something which is probably still scary, like regardless of whether you’ve got a a big parachute or a or or somewhere to to land if it all all goes wrong, it a risk is still a risk. It feels like a risk regardless. You know, if you’d have if, if. If you guys had failed in the first couple of months. Of of running the agency. Yeah, you’d have had a a parachute. You’d have had living at home and you’d have had the opportunity to go get jobs or whatever you wanted to do, or start again, and you’d still feel like you’d failed. And the risk was there and I think take the opportunity that comes across at any time if it’s an opportunity and you’re the type of person that that would love to do. Like agency, an agency business. Then just try and do. But maybe try and fail quickly just in case it is. You do get five years down the line and realise you’re. Terrible at it.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Exactly and I think. There’s so much value and as cheesy as it is and and cliche, there’s so much value and a failure. And and that’s. Where you’ll learn so much about yourself and. Yeah. And what you enjoy, I think as long. As you break it down and analyse it. Properly what went wrong? What went? Well, then you can’t really lose, you know. That you’ve just got to. Make the.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Most out of that? Yeah, I think running a a business and especially running a digital agency is the most valuable MBA you’ll ever have in your life. It’s way better than anything you can learn in a book. It really is because the failures that you often have, they’re kind of there’s lots of little small ones along the way that don’t have an impact on the business as a whole. But they’re lessons that you’ve never learned. If you hadn’t have just gone out and taken the opportunity to get there and do it.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
I totally agree. I totally agree. I but. I don’t think. We we mentioned, but I dropped out of UNI to do this full time. I went to.
Chris Simmance (Host)
There you go. Massive massive risk. You could have had a huge debt as well as a piece of paper that was useful.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Exactly. Yeah, like most shiny piece of paper with a. With a grade on. It and and I I dropped out and much to my dad’s. Annoyance at the time, he wasn’t keen on it. Mum was kind of. Like you know, you want to do. It you go for it, you do that thing and. And it paid off. But I think again, you know would have been there. I could have gone back. I could have gone a. Degree apprenticeship. But the time we started the agency, that opportunity wasn’t going to be there forever and it was growing. Yeah. So it needed to be done and I’m glad I did.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Brilliant, great advice to end the podcast on take the opportunities and also let Mum and Dad feed you whilst. You’re doing it? Yeah, I like it. Perfect. Thanks very much for coming on to the podcast.
Carl Hewitt (Guest)
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Good to chat with you and you, and in the next podcast we’ll be speaking to a different agency leader to hear what they’ve learned and and find out whether they did it with. Mum and dad. Feeding them so your way. Thanks for listening.