V.O. Guy
Hello and thanks for coming along too. And we have an office dog, the digital agency podcast where we talk to agency owner, directors and learn more about what makes them tick from the things that make them similar to the things they’d rather have known sooner where they’ve had success. And where they’ve learned some hard lessons. All will be revealed. With your host, Chris Simmance, the agency coach, and he’ll be talking to a different awesome agency person in each episode, asking them four questions and seeing where the conversation takes us over the next 25 minutes. OK, so let us begin over to you, Chris.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Thanks, voiceover guy and on the podcast today we’ve got Ulrika Vieberg. All the way from sunny slash cold Sweden. How are you doing?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m fine. Thank you. It’s snowing today, so white and crispy in Stockholm. Not not sunny though.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, well, you’ve got a good few months before your one day of sunshine. So oriki you. You are the founder of Unikorn and tell us all about Unikorn. Give us a plug. What? What do you do best?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
So Unikorn is an SEO agency and we specialise on user centric SEO, which means we always take the end user in focus whenever doing technical SEO. Content strategies or strategies in general digital ones such as that and yeah, everything we do is based on what the end user is looking for and search intents etc etc.
Chris Simmance (Host)
So does that sometimes cause? Not difficult, but sometimes harder to have conversations with clients when they think that they know their client, they’re they’re their own customers. And you’re saying this is the data that proves this is what the user wants.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Well, actually, when starting to let them know or like talking to them about uh, because yes, of course. Usually they say what we just want to sell products because that’s usually what my clients want to do. Uh, and then the the product pages are the most important things and. They don’t want to have fluff, etc. Dry, but they themselves are also customers for other people, so they they do know how it is to be a customer and and just have to tag into that and say like but how is it when you shop things, don’t you want to know stuff about it, do you don’t you have questions? Don’t you want to know? Like, how is this done? Or do you wake up? Knowing everything in the morning. No, of course not. They also use Google, so their customers also. Use Google and they then they understand that so not so hard.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And and I know the I know this story, but not all the listeners will know the story. So tell me, how did how did you start running the agency and how long has the agency been running?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
So starting Unicorn as the business, it’s already 6 almost seven years ago now, so I was, oh, I employed or I was contracted by eBay as what they call an A. WF, they called. Available work. So eBay was actually Unicorn. ‘s first customer, our clients. And then yes. Yeah, exactly. And.
Chris Simmance (Host)
You think? When?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
So I wanted to. Stay in Stockholm because I just had been living in Berlin, etcetera and I. Wanted to stay here in Stockholm. And but they wanted me to have a global uh role. So this is how we sorted that out. Me invoicing them and of course then I need to have a company so I can send invoices and as you know as unicore or as. It’s yours. We we always have to do different things like things we don’t know about yet, so we. Have to research and everything. People tend to ask us all. Sorts of things. To do like like really weird stuff. So. In a way, we are unicorns because we do the impossible. We tend to we tend to do the impossible like, and the things that no one expected us to do, and even us, we didn’t expect us to be to to do all. These things, but we did so. So that N and also the domain was free so.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And and and I mean that’s a big part of it. If you know anything about it.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
OK, start with the Bing searching.
Chris Simmance (Host)
You didn’t, and you didn’t end up with uni hyphen corn dot SE or something like that. Like one ends up rummaging through all of the different versions of of ways of saying the same thing. You end up with them. I’ve seen so many agencies that have gone for like dot IO or DOT digital now because they can’t get their own brand name. It’s just running out of words. So six ish years running the business. The agency’s been going quite well for quite a while now. And what do you think’s been one of the like, the biggest things that you would say was a like a success over that course? Of that time.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
In seeing the pride of myself starting a business. To done with because that has been. A lifetime goal of mine. So I’m super happy that I actually exactly. I took the box. I’m super happy about that. And I’m I’m super. Stoked about myself. Also, having staff people actually want to work with me, I think that is one of the biggest achievements and also that clients want to work with us is also one thing. But the thing that I’m most like proud of and think is the biggest success is how amazing my. My people are like the the my employees. Like they are, they’re so good and they’re so. Good people and I’m so happy that good people want to work with. And I think that is the most important because, you know, money that it comes in, you make money. If it’s, if it’s this money comes in. So yeah, exactly. The good people, I think that is it’s hard to find.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Comes and goes.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Or it’s just, I don’t know, maybe it’s maybe. It’s isn’t hard to find, maybe it’s just that. You need to trust them. But I’m so happy. That we have this really nice work environment together. So that leads me to the actually the thing that I’m most most. Most proud of. And that. And that is the culture that we. Have in the. Company because I’ve been working at other companies and everything is. Top notch and you have the. Most talented coworkers, the best managers, and there’s a lot of money and you can do everything, but the culture is crap and then it can’t be changed and you have to like. Tag along with that and and work against it. It feels like the the culture is working against you.
Chris Simmance (Host)
It does. And let’s talk about that for a second because. I I’ve I’ve found in the. I don’t know the last couple of years. More and more talking to digital agency leaders, I realise that quite a lot of people. Leaders, as well as other just general employees as well kind of think culture is a mixture of like pizza parties and office up the pub and bar trips and. Everyone kind of mucking in together and and and. And I think if you have a culture where, yeah, everyone helps each other out, but the it’s implicit that you have to. Yeah. And that’s not a culture that’s that’s we’re helping each other cause we don’t want our friends to be screwed over. And what what kind of culture have you cultivated? What? How, how? How does it? How if I was to become an employee, how would it? What would? What would I feel? What would I be involved in?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
So we work actually actively with having an open like open mind, but also open space where we can feel safe and where we can talk to each other. So we have once a month we have different. Activities like games, yeah, we sometimes we role play each other and sometimes we just love boots each other. And sometimes we just talk about the fears that we have. But we are very open and like having these like, it’s not like sessions, but it’s it’s like we. Have a strict. They do roll like things games. And say, like, OK, let’s talk about our strengths. Let’s talk about our weaknesses and let’s talk about what makes us stressed out. And let’s talk about. How the rest of us can help you out when you feel stressed out and doing. This of course in the. Beginning it was a little bit like we do. This not so. Seriously, but now, since we’ve been working together for a while. We are it’s we can feel that it’s. OK, to open up and. Ask for help. And say that I have. I’m having a crappy day. I I just need some love today and then we love that person and and etcetera. So yeah, it sounds very.
Chris Simmance (Host)
No, no. So what?Let’s let’s boil that down. Distil it down into something. Yeah, it sounds like you’ve created a culture which is essentially built on like a good amount of trust and emotional and emotional intelligence. Yeah, which is great because. As broad as that is, it allows people to be vulnerable, but also allows people to to. Feedback and advice in a way that they understand comes from not a position of I’m in charge, but it comes from a position of this is this is how I see it. The right way to do it, and they feel like they can trust you enough to take the feedback on the opposite direction as well. It’s.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Cool. Exactly. But. Also, as a manager is super important. That I show the same vulnerability to. Them and also ask them help for. Like for help when I. Need it like. Yeah, I also have crappy days. And and that also can help me because we are humans.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And and the last thing you could do that would the last thing you should do if you’re trying to keep a good culture in a team is make the leader of the business look like a Superman or Superwoman.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Exactly, yeah.
Chris Simmance (Host)
A super person. You can’t you if you do that, then it makes it really hard to show vulnerability to that person because it is essentially potentially perceived as like a weakness or something. Yeah. So. Is there something that you you that’s a really big thing to build a good culture and you know, congratulations on it cause it is, it is a big thing and and and the good thing is it helps you hire accordingly as well because you can get the right fit and is there something that you did relatively early on in your in the the journey of the agency that you that you realised like?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Thank you.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Really quickly, like, wow, this is a winner. We’re going to keep doing this. This this works.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Yeah, I was actually. Well, I have had a bunch of. Crappy business managers. So many that I can like. They’re everywhere. They’re everywhere. I don’t know. They’re growing trees.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Maybe they should buy a leadership and management course from the Omgg Centre.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Yeah, maybe they should, but I think they should listen. All you crappy men and yours. Bring a coach to take help. No, but actually. Yeah, exactly that. Take help but. I have had a list of things I. Don’t want to do. I don’t want to be like enforcing things on people. I want them to feel safe and then you can only go to yourself. What makes me feel safe? What makes me feel happy? What? What can I do and then ask? I mean, you can always ask people. Do you like me to do this or that? Or do you want me to be? Like more managing you do you want to be micromanaged or not, or do you want? Because sometimes if you if a person. Is very junior or very insecure in the workspace? Maybe they want to have really direct directions.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes they do.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Sometimes that is what the person needs, but if we also have an open discussion about that, then I know, and then I can give that.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, I think. You. You said it just there. There’s there’s a principle which I kind of worked to and like. Like a management continuum has for one of the way of putting it, so there’s some people that you give almost no autonomy to and you give all direction. And that’s because they both either need or want it. And then overtime, as they become more trustworthy and skilled and and able to to take more pressure and more more work, you give them more autonomy and that’s sliding scale moves depending on the person, the situation, the time, the task and their and their and their current kind of lifestyle. You know they’re saying. Someone had a a family bereavement or something like that. You’d take a top, you’d take autonomy away from them and you’d give them more say box checking style work to do so that they don’t feel the pressure of having to do much more on top of all the other labours in them.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Exactly, exactly that. And I also do one to ones very often where we talk about these things and that is like a safe hour when they can talk about whatever they want to. But I would also ask like. How do you think this went? When we had this project, did I? Did I like?
Chris Simmance (Host)
Should I buy a training course?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Exactly. And they were like, yes, yes. No. So we we talk, we we do have an open like communicative style in the office and I like that or.
Chris Simmance (Host)
So so. All very positive and I and I and I think open communication is regardless of what kind of business you run realistically, regardless of what kind of business it is, whether it’s flipping burgers at a restaurant or working in a digital agency or the CEO of of a bank open communication when you’re working with people is really, really essential. And if you get it. The right the right balance, people, people. You get more out of people without putting more on people, which is great. And so conversely to that success, uhm, what would you say is something that you did or found that you you once you realised crap? This isn’t something I should be doing, and you stopped it. And what did you? What was that? What did you do?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
So for the longest of times, it felt like I did this by myself for. I’ve I haven’t taken help when I needed it. And I need it and everybody needs help like with because. I’m not a trained business leader. I’m just good at what I do, and then I started the agency, so I have no idea what to do like business wise. And so I read a lot of articles and went to classes and and watched YouTube and the things that you do as an SEO. That’s how you solve problems, but.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Need day. Currently you solve all your problems with chat. BT as well just say it goes and then I get the keyword in my content because everyone else seems to be going after it exactly exactly.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
But too late. I actually turned to people asking for help, like how do? I do this. Because that would have been. A shortcut for me to cope better with the business and also learn how to do it better. Business wise, yeah. So that is one thing that I do regret, and I. Yeah, we need. We need help. We need mentors. We need people to rely on and talk to.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Absolutely. I I I completely agree. I mean, I literally have a business that helps those sorts of people. And one thing which one thing which I am I know having been an agency leader at the same time, uh, in in, in the past as well is. And similarly with all kinds of support you need to ask for it. And it’s different when you’ve got on a piece of software and you’re trying to get people to buy it, you knock on their door or you send them a cold e-mail or you pick up the phone and say, hey, I have this thing that solves this thing. That’s a functional add. This plus that equals solution. Whereas with any kind of mentoring, any kind of coaching or anything, like in that realm, the person who who who comes to you or you go to them, they need to be kind of ready for it. I’ve I’ve worked with some agency leaders in, in, in the past too. They had a big stack of self help books and they were untouched and then they came to. And it was a lot of this is an issue this week. Conversation is, so it ends up being therapeutic mentorship in in a sense rather than helping them to to, to, to solve their their real kind of build build their business problems and. It’s because they weren’t ready. And when you know you’re ready when you’re ready. So. As much as you maybe think it was a failing unless you wanted it and you were ready to take the advice years ago, then then it’s kind of a lesson that you learned in order to get to the point where you go right. I’m now ready for someone to come in.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
This is super interesting, I think. I think you’re right here. So yeah, like you know.
Chris Simmance (Host)
If you feel. If you’re an. Agency leader and you’re listening to this and you should be listening to this. And if you’re not, hopefully I can telepathically tell you that because you wouldn’t be listening to this if, oh, my God. I’m. Getting a bit better. And so if you’re an agency leader listening to this and you kind of think I’m ready for some help, then ask for help. Not there’s loads of people out there who can do it. The 1G centre is obviously one of them, but I think if you’re not ready for. But you know you’ve got problems then that’s when you do start the process of a bit of YouTube and reading an article or reading a book. Because you do need to get to the point almost by yourself to realise that you can’t fix some of these things without a mirror to hold up against all of your ideas and stuff. Which which I think it’s it’s valuable to to to, to to think that way. Otherwise you do just spend money and you don’t. Know what you. What you’re, you know, getting for it.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Chris, can I be honest here? I’ve I’ve read about.
Chris Simmance (Host)
This is being recorded and I’m married, yeah.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Not that kind of honesty. But I read all a bunch of books and I’ve listened to a bunch of pods and and youtubes and follow people, etcetera, etcetera. But then starting to talking, talking to mentors such as yourself. But I’ve also talked to a few others. It’s a whole different thing like it’s it’s eye opening, door opening. Everything is different. Like you. You cannot get this from. Like self educating material.
Chris Simmance (Host)
It’s very hard to because the. It’s the outsiders perspective.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Yeah. And you don’t get it. Like it’s exactly it’s. Not designed for.
Chris Simmance (Host)
You. Yeah, it. And. And that makes that makes it difficult, but it’s not impossible. It’s just it costs a lot more because you make more mistakes. Along the way. True, true that. So if you could. Go backwards in time now. To when the agency became an agency. Otherwise, rather than like a vector for billing people. What would you give advice to yourself? What one kind of piece of advice you feel? That you might have listened to. 6 ish years ago.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
So I I think. It was like. Three years or something in the business where I took this advice and I thought to myself, why didn’t I? Why didn’t I know this? Before, but I did that was to the first thing you need to do is build a buffer of money and you have I you sort of have to say yes to everything even even though you might not. Your internal compass might not agree 100%, but you there’s a buffer that. You need of money. To be able to say no to things that. You don’t like that much. Having that said, a a client, that or a project that you don’t agree with at all, you have to get rid of that because it’s going to steal energy from you so much that you might lose other clients, or you might not see other projects coming on, so you actually. Loose in that end. Because it takes too much energy for you. From you and there’s like, there’s there’s a fine line there that you don’t see really, like, like it’s hard to see. Like am I saying yes now because I need this money or and yes, that is the the case. But or is this project or clients taking too much energy for me and I I? Dislike it too. Much and often you see then after you. Reach quits and you burned all the bridges.
Chris Simmance (Host)
That balance is super hard to get and super hard to find because if you go too far saying yes, then you end up miserable but with lots of cash and no friends and and it and and then you find it even harder to say no later when you can afford to.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
Yeah, but there is this situation where you say yes and you have loads of cash. You can live with that, but if you have a situation where you say yes, you don’t have loads of cash because you are miserable and you can’t make all the cash because uh, because it takes the energy. That’s what I’m talking about. Say. Say no before that happens, yeah.
Chris Simmance (Host)
I love it and that’s that’s great. Great thing. Thinking, would you have listened to that? Advice though.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
If someone had talked to me about it, maybe I have been had been more. Like seeing it, seeing the problem coming. Before, before I did reach quits and and burned all the bridges with a few clients.
Chris Simmance (Host)
So let’s imagine. 6 ish years ago. You’re sitting there working on the agency on your own, and then ****. Out of nowhere came the six year future version of Orica riding a Unicorn and said I’ve got one piece of advice to give to you Orica. You gotta listen. Would you have listened to it?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
I might have. I might have said. Yeah, but I don’t understand. I I hear you. I don’t understand.
Chris Simmance (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s faulty.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
So that’s probably. But then we would at least have like started that like would have planted a seed and then started to think about it sooner so.
Chris Simmance (Host)
If there’s one if, if if there’s a an agency leader or someone who’s just about to start an agency right now listening, what kind? What? What if they were to come to you and they say, look, I’ve listened to. Your podcast? Really. Great, brilliant, brilliant audio quality. Everything was fantastic.
Chris Simmance (Host)
What one piece of advice would you give them if they asked for a piece of advice about starting their own agency?
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
So that would be. Make money, make a buffer. Say no to people you don’t like or projects you don’t like, but say yes to people you actually like and you can work with. To create that buffer, but be picky with the people you surround yourself with, because also in the beginning, uh, you’re going to have a lots of people who want to give you advice or just want to hang out with you or hang around you a bit picky with those people because not all. Of them are going to be good for.
Chris Simmance (Host)
And it and it can and it can cost more in the long run. If you don’t sort of think that way. And and I think the digital marketing industry in particular has this. There’s a, there’s a strangeness with with the kind of the FOMO style thing. You’ve got to be in the group with stuff and sometimes that’s not good for your business. Yeah. If it is great, but it’s not always good for the bus. So yeah, I think you know, you’re right, yeah. Create a buffer. Say no when you can or when you really. When your gut. Tells you to and yeah, your guts almost always right. Unless you’re, you know, not very good at understanding how money works or businesses work. And and I think, you know, pick pick your. Cheerleaders. It’s probably good. Goodbye. Doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And which is great advice to to end the podcast on. This is the the IT feels like 10 minutes have passed listener but actually haven’t. And so thank you very much for coming on ourika.
Ulrika Viberg (Guest)
And thank you. I’m super happy that I could be on. This spot, thank you so much.
Chris Simmance (Host)
No trouble at all, and in the next episode we’ll be listening to another agency leader to hear things that they’ve done terribly and things they’ve done great, and the lessons they’ve learned along the way. So thanks very much for listening.